[SM] Crushing Advance

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Charon
Posts: 99

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#21 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:57 pm

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Torquemadra wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:08 am
Worth noting this shouldnt be a 13 point ability, crashing wave should be and Im inclined to swap them back.
I don't really understand the thinking behind this. Please consider how big of a nerf that would be, because it really would be a huge change. Unless Crashing Wave got some sort of buff (put not in fa face's cooldown increaser on it?) I don't see why just a basic knockdown deserves to be at 13. Maybe just reduce the tooltip damage on it.

1. The BO has Down Ya Go at 13 points, this is a knockdown and a cooldown decrease for group. Its position is mirrored by Whispering Winds at 13 points, ie a CC effect + cooldown decrease
2. Tree hit combo and ether dance both at 13.
3. Then there is Not in da face at 9 points, cooldown increaser + 4 seconds CC immunity. This nicely mirrors Crashing Wave at 9 points for a KD + 4 seconds CC immunity. Both decent 9 point options.

Taking away crashing wave at 9 points would be a huge nerf. And pushes SM back to its live state of being either loldps spamming ether dance with almost zero CC, debuffs, utility or survivability - or it can spec the most over rated skill in the game "Whispering Winds" use it once every 20 seconds and pretend it is being a useful tank.

The DPS IB is now pushing the SM out of the meta at smaller scale. The IB brings so much more utility, buffs, aoe snare, KD, ST punt, debuffs and survivability, All in one spec! - while the IBs damage output isnt actually that much lower than the SM.

If anything the SM needs a huge rework to its intended role in the game. The SM brings nothing but extra damage to the group. This damage doesnt work at warband scale and at small scale it is usually CC that gets kills at small scale. so the SM really struggles to find an identity or role, the other tanks are so much more refined in their roles, and have the skills to match these roles.
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What makes you think going full investment for ether dance should reward you with utility? You dont have to go for ether dance you know. Theres plenty of utility available to 2h or s&b, why should you get it all?

We have (should have) at 13 - Ether dance - good ability, Crashing wave - good ability, whispering winds - good ability

and what makes you think BO should have a KD, WITH utility at 13 while SM have a KD WITH utility at 9? No other tank KD at 9 has utility built into it, its only the 13 pointers.

Heres the thing people seem to be missing with just about ALL of the balance proposals, this isnt a "buff me" forum, you may not like the attention you bring.
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it start to move into direction which we face when HB change was introduced.. After long discussion HB was nerfed to the point where is useless and most SMs removed it from their tool set (only because your quarrel with Peter3) what strongly weakened Hoeteh tree performance. In that case at least HB might have been seen as a issue.

But now..... Vaul tree is under performing because lack of important utilities neither in small scale nor in wb outside of some additional survivability for sm... Whats more SM generally doesn't have important utilities outside dmg (and doesn't have good smb option like BO) and you suggest another nerf in this department.... Sm players are calling for rework of weak path and you pretend to punish them for that.

Torque i appreciate your work and ideas when you trying fix some problems of classes that you know ....for example in wl case which are really appealing but in SM case i think you miss the point or.. you don't like this class generally..
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dansari
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#22 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:36 pm

Y'all really need to calm down. We literally had a conversation today about making Vaul better. Please just discuss the proposal
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Tesq
Posts: 4442

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#23 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:38 pm

footpatrol2 wrote:
Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:04 pm
Swap "Crushing Advance" with "Crashing Wave."

Crushing advance doesn't need to be modified. It's a decent 9 point ability.
yes it was in live and they always had this kd problem.....formaly the skill have multiple effect but you bring it for the kd , you want the kd, you need the kd and you had kd on 13 pt , where other tanks had it on 9 pt/core bo/sm had it on 13pt...

post 1.4.7 this is even more bad since all melee have 3 sec kd so no one will EVER care for a 13 pt mastery KD, especially when the contender is cd increase which is a positive effect which influence whole group vs a kd which can be used by an another tank /melee in the group (and on order side from 2/3 rdps too). That will never cut for any build ppl will till keep build left + right ignoring mid , it stil now lhappen most of times...due need to increase stat steal...due need of increase dmg overall or cd decrease from right.

the fact thet bo/sm skill may have additional effect is due the fact that they are not a very good buffer as ch/kobs and this always was fixed by get additional effects on skills for me. But still your primary tool is the KD, the 4 sec immunity gain is an accessory and nothing more, and for use specifically that you have to give a free immunity ( and the duration of the accessory effect is pretty low 4 sec).

CA is trash,,,,

-armor dont stack with pot so there is really no benefith to have it as 9 pt mastery if you don't go up till 13 and even that is just 200 armor overwriting pot.
-5% block is mediocre for a 9 pt(or 13 pt) skill which require both to land and can be shattered (with out count spend 1 MP on it lol
-interrupt which requrie to hit , good but still not gona make the word cry for you to have it, may just aswell drop s+b spam ether dance and produce more set back on casters....

You have two solution as they where alredy mentioned in the thread,

-one is a Qol change which is make by improve CA
-the other is rewamp RF for be a 13 pt skill and put CA into 5 pt wher a 5% block+ interrupt is fine ...

...the armor buff is like not existing since any tank see it overwrite by pot exept BG hence the solution 2----
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altharion1
Posts: 273

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#24 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:53 am

What makes you think going full investment for ether dance should reward you with utility? You dont have to go for ether dance you know. Theres plenty of utility available to 2h or s&b, why should you get it all?
Because all the other tanks retain huge amounts of CC and utility when offensively specced, why should the SM have nothing? IB for example has all the useful buffs (crit, parry), armour debuff, knockdown, ST punt and aoe snare all in a 2hander offensive spec, that is only marginally less damage than an ED SM. The SM has to sacrifice both survivability and utility to spec offensively, the other tanks only have to sacrifice survivability.

We have (should have) at 13 - Ether dance - good ability, Crashing wave - good ability, whispering winds - good ability

Just because an ability is good doesn't mean it has to occupy the 13th spot (cull the weak, pounce, shatter limbs etc etc etc) The ability effect itself self isn't what makes it a good ability, its how the ability effect interacts and synergizes with the spec, resulting rotations, class mechanics and group setup

and what makes you think BO should have a KD, WITH utility at 13 while SM have a KD WITH utility at 9? No other tank KD at 9 has utility built into it, its only the 13 pointers.
Are you saying 4 seconds of KD/silence immunity justifies an ability to be at the 13 spot and thus should be prevented from being used in any spec with ED or WW in it? If so, then it would be preferable to remove the 4 seconds of unstoppable, and keep it at 9


I appreciate this is your game, and you're free to do what you like with it. My concern is that unless there are changes the SM will be dead after a few more gear sets are released, just like live - due to the poor scaling of tactics and blurring shock, increases in resistances/wounds.

(Edited the quotes as I guess my formatting wasnt inline with forum ettiquette)
Last edited by altharion1 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Aurandilaz
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#25 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:07 pm

SM mid tree is certainly meh. Regarding the OP suggestion, I'd say increase the block to 15%, armor doesnt matter because armor pot anyway - so could remove that altogether; change effect duration to 10 sec.
However I'd also suggest adding extra juicy benefit to the ability: Party members within 20 feet gain 200 moral. (or 150 if too much? )
I'd keep Shield requirement for the ability, and then increase ability CD from 10s to 15sec so it might not be too easy to pump a party full of moral.

It would help SM get some utility apart from being just a WWspambot or 3rd mdps in party.
The moral pump would be hard to minmax due to close range requirement, but also because SM needs shield, and increased CD to 15 sec makes it still harder to reach the most desired morals. Possibly also consider that WW doesnt affect the CD of this ability so you can get max 800 moral per min from SM out.


edit: not sure if the interrupt matters so if it should stay or not. you can always taunt interrupt so don't see reason for this ability to keep it in case it gets buffed otherwise.

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footpatrol2
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#26 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:15 pm

You pick up CA for the interrupt. Everything else is secondary/flash.

CytheX
Posts: 57

Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#27 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:30 pm

The interrupt component is not worth, IMHO u need to Sudden shift first and if is on cd u need a gcd making very hard to use it on right time, and of course u have to be in melee so u can't really use it to interrupt the good stuff.

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footpatrol2
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#28 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:15 pm

The interrupt is worth it, IF your specc'd for deft tard. If your not deft tard, obviously the interrupt isn't worth it.

If your going deft tard, likely your going to pick up Vaul's buffer tactic. Which means CA is only a single spec point to your build... Your not going into vaul for CA. Your going into vaul for other reason's and you'll have even more reason's to go deep into vaul if CW is moved back to 13 point.

RoR's community got used to CW being 9 point when it probably should have never been moved down to 9 point. CW being 13 point and CA being 9 point is correct due to the power level of those abilities.

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altharion1
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#29 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:34 pm

footpatrol2 wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:15 pm
CW being 13 point and CA being 9 point is correct due to the power level of those abilities.
Abilities are not, and should not, be placed in the trees based on their individual strength alone. Their position should be based on what other mastery abilities or tactics they can take with it, and have access to in one particular spec.

Pounce and Forced Opportunity are below Whirling Axe. Impending Doom is below Shades of Death etc etc etc etc
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dansari
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Re: [SM] Crushing Advance [Close Date Apr 30]

Post#30 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 5:05 pm

Technically CW and CA are out of sync in a couple of ways. Look at Khaine: speccable abilities normal balance --> improved balance --> perfect balance. Hoeth: normal balance --> perfect balance. And to Torque's point, all of the tank knockdowns that have no utility are placed at 9pts on the tree; the ones with utility were/are at 13 points: Cave-In (IB) = 9pt, Smashing Counter (kotbs) = 9pt, Downfall (cho) = 9pt, Get Down (BG) = 9pt, Down Ya Go (BO) = 13pt (grants cd decreaser for group). SM is the exception to this standard, as it stands currently.
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