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[INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

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TenTonHammer
Posts: 3807

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#41 » Wed May 24, 2017 12:01 pm

Ok

Interesting

But will this do anything about the, "never leave EvC" syndrome that is prevelent in t1? It was mentioned then I missed that


My suggestion for that has always been that when that painting has been locked to have high level mobs hostile to both factions like Khorne deamons to spawn all over the lake so that no one can fight anywhere for the duration of the lock


This will force players to either sit around twiddling their thumbs or go to the other faction lakes
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arcdevil
Posts: 12

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#42 » Wed May 24, 2017 12:51 pm

Grunbag wrote:If the BO control system works on sc, there's no reason it won't work on rvr.
erm...what? how are RvR and scs comparable? since when are scs 8 vs 40?
scs are balanced (in numbers at least) by default. RvR is....not

mekal
Posts: 208

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#43 » Wed May 24, 2017 12:57 pm

arcdevil wrote:
Grunbag wrote:If the BO control system works on sc, there's no reason it won't work on rvr.
erm...what? how are RvR and scs comparable? since when are scs 8 vs 40?
scs are balanced (in numbers at least) by default. RvR is....not
pretty sure he meant the mechanic of it working as in sitting on the flag to cap

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Grunbag
Former Staff
Posts: 1881

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#44 » Wed May 24, 2017 1:29 pm

yes i meant the mechanic
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xanderous
Posts: 501

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#45 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:05 pm

TenTonHammer wrote:Ok

Interesting

But will this do anything about the, "never leave EvC" syndrome that is prevelent in t1? It was mentioned then I missed that


My suggestion for that has always been that when that painting has been locked to have high level mobs hostile to both factions like Khorne deamons to spawn all over the lake so that no one can fight anywhere for the duration of the lock


This will force players to either sit around twiddling their thumbs or go to the other faction lakes
Regiments of empire soldiers and chaos marauders for nordeland as an example dependent on lock would be neat.
Bashgutz RR82 Borc Vaseryn RR61 SM Krantz RR82 Knight Corvinus RR70 Chosen Mormonty RR72 IB
Starkus RR70 BG Snaptz RR83 SH Plagueis RR81 Magus Alec RR85 Engie Sourgazt RR69 Shaman
Kreaver RR80 Marauder Dugald RR75 Slayer

dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#46 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:17 pm

Currently there is little incentive to go to the other pairings in T1 because the "lock" is instantaneous upon capturing the BOs and doesn't provide nearly any renown/inf. It's also somewhat faster to find fights in Nordland. With this change, I think the incentive to capture and hold BOs in other pairings will outweigh the ease of finding fights in Empire.

BUT: we should stop giving theorycrafting much credence and simply wait for the changes to be made. Then we can provide feedback to the team on our actual experiences.
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#47 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:33 pm

Thanks guys! This has me excited!!! We all appreciate the hard work. I have some reservations about a few items...

First, though:
Yaliskah wrote: II. (not so new) Concept.
Spoiler:
The lock condition : Control ALL Battle objective + Generate a small amount of resources (autogenerated by contrlolled BOs)
If zone lock without any fight or low fight frequency, zone will lock with reduced reward.
I like it!!! Hold BOs, generate resources - generated by controlled BOs. Sounds awesome! (though I am curious how T4 will work.... Since obviously Keeps are involved...)
Yaliskah wrote: III. Major changes
Spoiler:
Guard and BOs lock timers are removed, capping system is based on Nordenwatch scenario ( with a small tweak).
YUS!!!!!! Not a HUGE change, but I think this will be fun! the "click to cap" thing was really lame IMO, allow us to focus on fighting not having to "prevent someone from capping via clicking" LOVE THIS!
Yaliskah wrote: IV. Pair lock system
Spoiler:
2 Pairs will always be opened. When a pair locks, the 3rd opens.
Not quite sure I understand this... So if 4 BOs, 2 are active. When those "lock" another 2 open? So when those other two lock, the first pair opens?

I dont get this one... why have a "pair lock system"? Why not just have them all open.... Seems this will promote zerging between 2 BOs, or having the zerg positioned between 2 BOs... to zerg either one of them...
Yaliskah wrote:
V. Battle Objectives, control & fights.

Spoiler:
When controlled, Battle Objectives will produce XP/RP/INF micro ticks every 6 seconds (may be refined). They will autogenerate “resources” when holded. The farest they will be from Warcamp, the higher reward and “resource” generation will be.
To take a BO, players will have to enter in the BO perimeter, and stay in it (like Nordenwatch sc). The more players are in ( max 6), the fastest the BO will be controlled (like Nordenwatch sc). If none keep a BO, it will return to a neutral state and instantly stops to generate resources.
If players are fighting around BOs, Ticks and “resource” generation are frozen. The fight part is based on a 6 players max cap.

Some exemples.
-2 defenders vs 1 offender, BO is frozen (neutral state), gauge doesn’t move.
- 4 defenders vs 4 offenders, BO is frozen (neutral state), but gauge doesn’t move.
- 2 defenders vs 3 offenders, BO is frozen(neutral state), gauge goes slowly to offender control direction.
- 6 defenders vs 25 offenders, nothing will happens cause it is considered like a 6 vs 6. So BO is frozen (neutral state), and gauge doesn’t move (preventing zerg influence), 1 defender must be killed to start moving gauge.
-15 defenders vs 25 offenders, BO frozen (neutral state), gauge doesn’t move. 9 defenders must be killed to start moving gauge.
THIS is the #1 concern I have. Not the "capture mechanics" that all sounds good. But the:
"If none keep a BO, it will return to a neutral state and instantly stops to generate resources. " ALSO the:
"Battle Objectives will produce XP/RP/INF micro ticks every 6 seconds (may be refined)"

I dont get these parts.... one of the biggest complaints in RVR is "WaitHammer"... We cap a BO, we wait 2 min for it to lock (or longer). Your enemy caps a BO, we wait around for it to unlock, to then wait for it to lock... What happens when NO fights are going on? This is just going to be "AFK on the BO guys, Alt+Tab out and wait".

This also discourages a lesser force to fight! Think about it... On the current system, the side that has AAO can pick their place to fight. They run up to a far BO and cap it, with little to no resistance (because the zerg is running around elsewhere).

On THIS system it seems only 2 BOs will be active ("Pair system") and even if that werent the case. The opposing side is going to be forced to have a formidable force at EVERY BO. So there is no real "advantage" to the small teams trying to pick a fight....

I have a VERY bad feeling this is going to kill RVR participation more during non peak times.... I really hope I am wrong....

What I would encourage INSTEAD of a tick every 6 seconds and "must be on the BO to keep it":
Spoiler:
You want a system that allows players to move around the zone. Looking for action, yet not feeling punished to do so. You DONT want AFK on the BO mentality... the system needs to have BOs undefended at times, to provided for a "lesser force" to stand a chance at defending!

I had proposed before: Make these tick every 5 or 6 minutes with 1 BIG tick, rather than small ticks every 6 seconds. What THIS does is allows strategy. If all 4 BOs are open. If each BO ticks every 5-6 minutes and each BO is the "same tick" worth.. You will have larger warbands trying to roam the zone, while a smaller force can pick a BO, and cap it JUST before the "tick" to allow them to get points....

Right now, a smaller force will cap it, and 30 seconds later they will get zerged and get what... 5 small ticks of infl/renown/etc? Its just not worth it for a small group.... It needs to be larger ticks, with larger spacing inbetween, where it becomes critical the closer that BO gets to its "tick" to hold and own it... All BOs should be on the same "schedule" as well... THIS splits up the zerg, but doesnt FORCE the larger force to keep people at every BO - which is what you need for the smaller force to have a chance.
Yaliskah wrote: VI. “Resources”
Spoiler:
This “resource” generation has 2 purposes. The first and especially in T1 is to temporize a bit the campaign and prevent instalocks. The second is to prepare new players to the resource concept in higher tiers.
I LIKE it! Eases them into the campaign!
Yaliskah wrote: VII. Extras
Spoiler:
Some little things will come around this mechanic to complete and finish the work. Most of them will be developed some time after deployment, and maybe one will be introduced when deployed.
- (probably deployed) Racial Influence bonus if you play in your dedicated Pair.
- (later. some handler needed) Dedicated RvR quest ( visit specific/all BO), hold (specific/all BO), lock (specific/all pair)
- (much later, big piece of cake) A brand new bag roll system on lock
- (must be discussed, and probably not usefull in T1) Controlled BO respawn point
- (must be discussed) Report of "resources"on the upper tier on lock
IX. When?
Spoiler:
Probably next Week.
I do like the ideal of a Racial Influence Bonus. This will promote racial groups playing together. This is a GREAT idea IMO!

The rest of it looks great! My biggest concern comes from the BO "pair" system and the "6 sec ticks + must STAY on the BO"...

Those might work for T1, but T4 this thing would be detrimental for RVR... I hope I am wrong. I am VERY EXCITED to test this!!!! You will definitely see me in T1 for this :)
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Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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Yaliskah
Former Staff
Posts: 1973

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#48 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:44 pm

2 pairs opened : 2 zones ( dwarf/greenskins + chaos/empire for exemple)

About Waithammer, i was waiting for this argument :). So i'll ask you personnaly this.
If you and your team mates know there is an enemy on a specific place stealing YOUR PRECIOUS TICKS ( and you will know it very quickly), will you ignore him and let him live ?

If your answer is "YES" (i really doubt), i think thats not an issue, thats your will :).
So unless 100% players (then everybody would be happy and this wouldn't be an issue) want to wait under a flag doing nothing, this wouldn't happen.

You want easy renown? Hold BOs and keep them. You want fights? Move around BOs you won't have to wait long to find some. You want lock and great rewards ( later)? Work with your faction and lock the zone. Waithammer? really? :)

Now, and as said, i'm maybe completely wrong, only tests will reveal the horrible truth :).

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dansari
Posts: 2524

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#49 » Wed May 24, 2017 2:45 pm

th3gatekeeper wrote:Not quite sure I understand this... So if 4 BOs, 2 are active. When those "lock" another 2 open? So when those other two lock, the first pair opens?
This would be zone pairings, not BOs. So currently only one zone is open. Team wants to open 2, but not all 3.

I too wonder about Waithammer on the BOs... but again, let's experience it and test, not theorycraft.. I can hear Torque pulling his hair out at the word...
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [INTRODUCTION] ORvR T1 : Reboot

Post#50 » Wed May 24, 2017 3:33 pm

Yaliskah wrote:2 pairs opened : 2 zones ( dwarf/greenskins + chaos/empire for exemple)

About Waithammer, i was waiting for this argument :). So i'll ask you personnaly this.
If you and your team mates know there is an enemy on a specific place stealing YOUR PRECIOUS TICKS ( and you will know it very quickly), will you ignore him and let him live ?

If your answer is "YES" (i really doubt), i think thats not an issue, thats your will :).
So unless 100% players (then everybody would be happy and this wouldn't be an issue) want to wait under a flag doing nothing, this wouldn't happen.

You want easy renown? Hold BOs and keep them. You want fights? Move around BOs you won't have to wait long to find some. You want lock and great rewards ( later)? Work with your faction and lock the zone. Waithammer? really? :)

Now, and as said, i'm maybe completely wrong, only tests will reveal the horrible truth :).
Thanks for the quick response Yali!!! I hope my post didnt come across rude or condescending, because thats not how I feel at all. I am excited more than anything. Heck, even if this change DOESNT work out... I am excited to test new things for you guys!

the "waithammer" comment was more in regards to low population times. I play NA, so my perspective varies from many other players. Often (for me) I get on and RVR is usually me in a small 6 man, running around with 200%+ AAO capping BOs and trying to pick fights with a larger force - when we feel we can take out a significant # of them before going down.

Now, right now this works for us, because we get to tactifully choose when and where to attack the larger force. We can get wiped trying to take 1 BO, and shift gears and run to a distant BO where we know there wont be any defenders, or very few if there are... Also, when we do flip a BO, because we are a small number, there is usually a 50-50 chance we can hold out for the lock on that BO. This feels "meaningful", we feel we can actually do something....

What my FEAR is, is when we have 400% AAO, each BO is going to be heavily guarded and the chances of us stealing a BO is going to be much more slim, as well as we are going to have to take on the defending BO force but also immediately have "reinforcements" from the opposing side - from the nearest BO, the second they even catch wind of our attack on that BO. No BO will be left undefended - because they want the ticks and because the BO will become unowned if they leave it...

Then, even IF we do flip that BO, the success is short lived because we get a few small ticks, before the larger reinforcements arrive, clearing us out of the BO. This doesnt feel meaningful... In fact, I might be discouraged to do this because all we got were a few "ticks" but then we got wiped....

On the FLIP side of this. When we are outnumbered and trying to pick fights at a specific BO... The other 3 BOs are going to be filled with players just sitting there doing nothing being bored...

I think this system will THRIVE during high population times, because yes - there will always be fights going on. When its 50vs50 or more.. There will be ample people fighting BOs 24/7.... However later nights, when RVR is dead and order zergs with 1-2 warbands and we cant even get more than 10 destro to try and mount a defence.... Well, my FEAR is RVR will be non existant. The order zerg will die because its not fun waiting at BOs... and Destro defense wil die because its not fun dying trying to take heavily defended BOs...

Ill wait and see, I hope I am wrong, and as I said I am just excited to test something new! Also, this is "theorycrafting" for T4 in which right now you havnt rolled out T4... So this could all be a moot point... I am a theorycrafter at heart and passionate about this game, so im sorry if I come across as being disgruntled or unahppy. I am happy, and thankful you guys are trying something new! :)
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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