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[Pre-Production] White Lion

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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#51 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:31 pm

Short version of things that have actually changed and not just moved around or had slight restrictions removed.
dansari wrote:
Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:00 pm

New Hunter tree: debuff tree

5: Pounce (player cannot Pounce with Trained to Stay active [see Woodsman]).

7: Kurnous' Chosen (new tactic at 7pt Hunter which augments Fey Illusion to grant a wounds debuff for 10s). Value is exact to Marauder Thunderous Blow, i.e. calculation is (rank * 2.5) = wounds value, rounded down where 7pt = 80, 13pt = 95, or 15pt = 100.
Kurnous hunts alongside you, strengthening your Fey Illusion by additionally decreasing your target's Wounds by (rank * 2.5) for 10 seconds.
To more closely align with Marauder, we're granting a Wounds debuff via tactic here. Ultimately, we acknowledge that in a min/max group, you will have a Knight wounds debuff and this is unnecessary; it will however provide viable choice for players who do not have a 2h knight in party.

11: Merciless Blows (new tactic at 11pt Hunter which augments Shattering Blows to increase target’s cast times by .5s). This affects all abilities, even instant casts.
Shattering Blows additionally increases your target's cast times by .5 seconds.
This was a very difficult decision, and one that may be the most controversial of the standard Hunter/Axeman builds. This is an incredibly strong tactic which we will obviously monitor closely once implemented. The main goal for the placement of this tactic is that it has to at least compete in viability with the 11pt Axeman tactic. The tactic currently in this slot is very lackluster.

Hunter core abilities

- Trained to Hunt (unmoved, Leg Tear (snare) and Shred (armor debuff) from Trained to Threaten added and Bite and Claw Sweep from Trained to Hunt removed). Pet stats unchanged. Leg Tear duration reduced to 5s. Shred duration reduced to 15s and made instead a non-stacking Toughness debuff, scaled with points in tree [(rank * 3) = Toughness debuff value] where 15pt in tree is 120 and 9pt in tree is 102.
Because Hunter already holds an undefendable armor debuff, we thought it repetitive and unnecessary to keep a pet-initiated armor debuff, so we're changing to a Toughness debuff to match the theme of the tree. Additionally, and as a nod to lions who liked to use Trained to Threaten to slow enemies, we're adding the slow from the pet here and adjusting the duration of the snare to 5s.

New Axeman tree: damage tree

New Woodsman (former Guardian): aoe tree

5: Ethereal Cleave (similar to Marauder Wave of Mutilation), 10s cooldown
You cleave your enemies within 30 feet, dealing (60 + 9 * rank) + (0.4 str) physical damage over 9 seconds. Your targets take a (rank * 2) ability penalty to Initiative and Weaponskill.

7: Spirit Strike (tactic adds a 50% bypass to all Woodsman abilities)
While using Trained to Stay, all of your Woodsman abilities bypass 50% of your opponent's Spirit resistance.
We think previous WL iteration was OK but not quite as potent as it should have been. We're mirroring the 50% bypass available to warband Marauder here to reflect that.

9: Echoing Challenge (mirror Marauder Concussive Jolt. Trained to Stay must be active to be able to use)
You deliver a fierce challenge to your enemies, knocking down all targets 25 feet in front of you for 2 seconds and inflicting 113 damage. [This ability can only be used while in Trained to Stay.]
Bringing back the aoe knockdown that Order has been missing. You cannot Pounce and use this ability because we want to avoid what is effectively a 65ft ranged aoe knockdown.

11: Hack Them Down (mirror Marauder Crushing Blows)
While using Trained to Stay, all of your Woodsman abilities have a 25% chance to remove 225 points of Morale from the enemy.
Now that WL will get its morale drain back we may remove morale drains from other Order classes, though Morales are a whole discussion in and of themselves that we will tackle later.

Woodsman Core abilities

- Trained to Stay. Converts all Woodsman abilities to Spirit. Pet is not allowed to be summoned. Player gains 25% increased damage which does not stack with Loner, player cannot Pounce with Trained to Stay active.
You train your pet to stay and protect Chrace while you do battle. You deal 25% more damage since your War Lion cannot be called forth and all of your Woodsman abilities convert to Spirit damage. You cannot Pounce with Trained to Stay active and its effects do not stack with Loner.
Instead of making Loner a renown tactic, we're building it directly into the Training and removing the pet, as well as converting abilities to Spirit damage all at once. The drawback for this is you cannot Pounce.

- All Trainings given a 5s cast time (castable on the move) and cost 100AP.

- New core tactic, Relentless Assault, which mirrors Marauder's Subvert Strength (40 AP on crit, 3s icd)
Any time you critically hit an enemy, you will regain 40 Action Points. Tactic cannot trigger more than once every 3 seconds.

- New core tactic, Wild Slashing, which mirrors Marauder's Widespread Demolition
Increases Slashing Blade's radius to 30 feet.

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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#52 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:59 pm

1. Do you play the class in question?

Yes, WL RR 80.

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?

Marauder: no. Same archetype: 3 other DPS classes renown 40-55.

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

Led pug warbands 1+ years
Organized roaming/sc group 3+ months
Solo/duo ganking last year

4. Your feedback

When creating my WL back in 2015, I was looking forward to play an unique MDPS class with a pet. My interest was in pet's tree as I have never played active pet classes before and was looking forward for the options offered by the pet class.

Proposed changes are totally removing the possibility of heavy-pet gameplay, for example:
3s stun of pet is removed, aoe 2s stun offered instead; Leonine Frenzy moved to the middle tree, making impossible the combination of Pounce, FO, Pet Stun and Leonine Frenzy in one build; self-healing tactic is removed. To add insult to the injury for pet builds stun is limited to petless build in former pet-heavy tree.

This change radically alters the class from the original Mythic vision and removes from the game gameplay style that WL in 1+3 build was enjoying for many years. Personally I consider unnecessary removal of gameplay style that was and is used by many players being extremely wrong solution following the sidesteps of insane Azarael's changes leading to massive drop of player's base.
magicthighs wrote:Finding bugs is what players are for. The RoR team itself doesn't have the people nor the time to do that.

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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#53 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:12 pm

1. Do you play the class in question?


2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?


3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question (be that playing the class, or playing against it)?

played solo, 6man and wb with it.
played against it.

4. Your feedback

I like idea of changes BUT...
You give us 3 dps heavy trees while completely removing pet dependant / tanky dps. While some marauders outta there are tougher then SnB chosens, and havin nice working self heal, WL on the other hand is turned to a regular dps squishie...

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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#54 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:27 am

1. Do you play the class in question?
Yes. Chrizx WL 40/80

2. Do you play the mirror class of the class in question (or at least the same archetype)?
Yes Chrisx Marauder 40/39 and Chrizzz Bouncin Squig Herder 40/65

3. What perspective do you speak from? What is your experience with the class in question?
All my experience is limited to solo/duo/trio/4/5/6 man play.

4. Your feedback?
I made my opinions clear during the initial process, but I'd like to reiterate them here:

A. Woodsman: I fully support White Lions receiving an aoe spec that is oriented around warband play. I even enjoyed Azarael's initial application of it. I see a lot of comparisons being made here to the Monstrosity Marauder. I also see extreme biases, with people cherry-picking certain aspects of these two classes to justify their stances. Will Woodsman put out more damage than the current iteration of Monstrosity? I believe so yes.

But to blatantly focus on this one aspect, and completely neglect to mention things like Hulking Brute and Monstrosity Stance, is just unfair. Without an initiative buff being baked into the White Lion's aoe stance (like Azarael's version), what do you think the survivability discrepancy would be between these two specs? Double? Triple? I would argue that a Monstrosity Marauder had roughly double the survivability of a Woodsman WL during the time we had to experience it on the live server. Please keep fairness in mind when trying to portray one class as "favored".

B. Hunter/Axeman (traditional spec): Looks good. As most people believe, the cast-time increase will probably be the deciding factor in how powerful this spec will be for small-scale play. What I would like everyone to acknowledge or understand is why certain mdps classes are taken in small-scale play in the first place. The Slayer has the potential to bring an incoming heal debuff, knockdown, and significant aoe damage. The Witch Hunter can likewise bring an incoming heal debuff, knockdown, and one of the most terrifying single-target burst damage order side. The Assault Shadow Warrior also brings an incoming heal debuff and knockdown. Hell even the Wrath Warrior Priest can bring an incoming heal debuff.

The Hunter/Axeman White lion brings neither a knockdown or an incoming heal debuff. We are reliant on others to provide them. So what incentive is there to take one over these other mdps? Ignoring the morale potential of each individual mdps class for now, the White Lion's current advantages are mobility, slightly higher burst damage on very specific targets, and of course, the armor debuff. The question is whether this is enough to justify a role in the group over the others or not. So in place of an incoming heal debuff and knockdown, we can potentially receive this cast time increase to help tip those scales more "definitively" in our favor. I personally think it's a nice idea.

*Edit* Complaints: Azarael hated the concept of pets (and possibly mdps in general). So he turned our beloved lions into more of an aesthetic piece than utility for combat. As seen in previous posts in this thread, people like their pets. For many, it’s what drew them to the class in the first place (myself included). Our pets can’t run fast enough to fetch in most situations (even with speed training slotted), their damage doesn’t seem to scale with our gear well, and their ability to knockdown is being removed. IF the class ends up being superior with a loner spec and spamming sundering chop again, it would be a tragedy.
Chriz (Swordmaster 6x)
Criz (Runepriest 4x)
Chrizx (White Lion 8x)
Chrizzz (Squig Herder 6x)

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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#55 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:07 am

When will this (pre)patch be applied ?

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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#56 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:21 pm

Lesnoj wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:07 am
When will this (pre)patch be applied ?
We are currently talking things over internally in an effort to find out what the next course of action ought to be, so that is yet to be decided. We do not want to butcher the class mechanic if at all necessary, so we are going to have to rethink and rehash a few of our ideas. Also, we want to take the community's opinions into account when deciding on any course of action.

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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#57 » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:56 pm

Ive given this a few days to settle and 2 things keep coming back to me:

(since you find that so important: rr 88 wl in live, deleted the wl in RoR to make room for another char, 20 char slots just isnt enough. Besides that (melee)sh and monstro mara both in live and in RoR)

The debuff tree: way too OP, the wl is already a sc beast and implementing this will kill sc ques in days.
add: Kurnous' Chosen: 100 wounds debuff = 1k undefendable damage that can not be healed back. Idea isnt that bad but the value is too high, half of it would be enough.
The part that makes it so too OP: Merciless Blows: Apply it on any tank or mdps and their output is basically reduced by 33% for 10 secs without a cd. All instant abilities without a cd simplified get an gdc increase kind of. Something as proposed should have a cd of 20 to 30 secs i feel.

The aoe tree:
Pounce is the ability that makes the wl fun to play. A wl without pounce is heavily crippled in my eyes.
Marauders are pretty corrupted individuals, a wl willing to learn these abilities seems so corrupted that it doesnt have a place between high elves. Lorewise a wl this corrupted will be taken out of his misery by his peers. The monstro mara abilities fit on a wh much better.

Loner tactic built into the stance is a free tactic. The sh has to sacrifice a tactic slot for it but can still summon his pet when needed.
Lets not hand out free tactics?

I would like to advise you to look at the melee sh for the aoe tree; you get to keep the pounce and the aoe is very decent too without making the wl a crippled abomination. Lorewise it makes much more sense.
Timmitz (BO) Pestilentius (Chosen) Chronik (Marauder) Falaria (DoK) Poostainz (Shaman) Eadcheeze (SH) Shroomdeth (Choppa) Geriatricus (WP) Aleguts (Engi) Burnsie (BW)

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Re: [Pre-Production] White Lion

Post#58 » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:55 am

Locking. It's been decided that overarching changes to WL will not take place at this time. We'll try to bring incremental changes (with no flat disorient and no wounds debuff) over time.
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