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[Implementation Feedback] A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

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Danielle
Posts: 206

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#71 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:10 pm

bloodi wrote:I think most people point is not that you can burn that target in 3s, is that once you do so, a tank will snare the target, thats what tanks are for.

So if anything, this buff is mostly based around the concept of a WH/WE not having a group to support him.
This is not about the group supporting the WH, this is about the WH supporting the group by having a ranged slow and catch potential once a fight is already on. All other classes mdps classes have some, this could be one for WH.

WH can be the first class to reach a target but without a slow doesn't allow their group to catch up (ofc they have a kd but that's subject to immunities). It doesn't have charge/kd + melee slow to chase a target and slow them down for the rest of their group to catch up. If the ranged slow was working as outlined in 1 or 2 it would provide this utility.
Last edited by Danielle on Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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bloodi
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Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#72 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:11 pm

Spoiler:
Danielle wrote:This is not about the group supporting the WH, this is about the WH supporting the group by having a ranged slow and catch potential once a fight is already on. All other classes mdps classes have some, this could be one for WH.
He already has that, is called stealth.
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Danielle
Posts: 206

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#73 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:14 pm

bloodi wrote:
Danielle wrote:This is not about the group supporting the WH, this is about the WH supporting the group by having a ranged slow and catch potential once a fight is already on. All other classes mdps classes have some, this could be one for WH.
He already has that, is called stealth.
Since you can't be bothered to actually read the thread:
Danielle wrote:In a group v group scenario or more if playing against good opposition a WH/WE will get focused 90% of the time after they open from their first stealth. Because of this they will likely never be allowed to restealth before the engagement is decided. Even that first stealth can be kited out by aware opponents who play extra safe. If an opponent was killed in 3 seconds every time a WH/WE executed properly with their first stealh in 6v6 a group situation everyone would be running them, this is simply not the case. Aside from the Excommunicate morale pump cheese and a 4dps proc group (which both are a stretch on the theme of 'viable' group composition) I haven't seen a single viable comp having success with WE/WH.

This is why I dislike the argument that they should be 100% dependent on stealth, because that requirement is unrealistic. The way things are any other mdps than these two can charge, Choppa and Slayer can charge+kd, WL can pounce, both Mara and WL have M1 to catch ranged or escaping targets. With a dysfunctional snare a WH/WE are left standing there not able to contribute anything to the group in terms of catching a target once their first stealth is done and they are being hit. That's why I believe a snare is important. I prefer suggestions 1&2 better, because they allow a skill to be used that's unique to the class, rather than having a copy of a 40% melee snare from a different class. I don't think having a functional ranged slow would suddenly make the class ridiculous and a snare from sides/back is keeping with the theme of positional attacks.
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bloodi
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Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#74 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:28 pm

I read it, i just think you are trying to neuter whatever flavor classes have.

WH/WE trade a much better opener in the first attack for a need to reset the situation after the first attack doesnt succeed, your suggestion is basically giving them the best of both worlds, the best opener and the ability to snare without external help as a melee character.

If they fail the opener, is the tanks job to keep the target in range. Your suggestion is basically giving them a better ranged snare than anything already existing in game, every ranged snare has a duration that is lower than its CD, asking people to coordinate them to keep a target snared, i would agree with evenomed blade/fervor giving an equivalent of a tank snare once the 3 stacks are up, after all he would have to spend the gcds in it.

Giving them a better snare than any tank or any other class has because you dont feel like resetting after failing a stealth opener? Hell no.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#75 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:31 pm

Would like to point out that every other ranged snare in the game is not positional, no other melee class uses light armor and that a snare that does not affect a target when used frontally and has half effect when used laterally (and presumably gains a 3s-5s CD for the pleasure) is not a better snare than anything else in the game.

A point that's also been raised internally just now, regarding the "tank is with you" comments - if your tank is strangely moving ahead - he's telegraphing your stealth to the enemy. I think the "tank should always be with you to supply the snare" comments need to stop.

bloodi
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Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#76 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:44 pm

Well, afaik, the hip shot/throwing dagger has no cd at all, is a spammeble skill, so i cant see where you cd argument comes from, also, is ranged and has a 5 secs duration, so is indeed better than any other ranged snare in the game if the changes proposed here go through.

Also, a tank job is not to stand there looking at people until a WH/WE opens, if a tank is running towards you, is because well, thats what tanks that have support do, go towards the enemy and cc them.

I am sure no one talked a situation where the only thing running towards you is a lone tank sprinting towards the only guy who is isolated on the other team. So i cant figure why the argument that the tank has to be there with you is something we should not mention, where should he be then?

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blaqwar
Posts: 471

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#77 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:17 pm

I have to agree with the above here, a tank's job is to either advance the line or hold it so that other archetypes can retreat. Either way, he's slightly to moderately out of position. The point here being that if a tanks position is telgraphing the play that much, then you're in a specific situation where the opposition know exactly what they are playing against which shouldn't happen too often due to the amount of different groups and different compositions those groups run.

I think it's needed to consider the changes from the viewpoint of counterplay. The current ranged slow has a few, strafe kiting, cleansing, RD... The proposed change people seem to be favouring (myself included) with a non-positional ranged slow on a cd only gets rid of one counterplay, strafing.

I think that strafing as a counterplay was too effective anyway so removing that doesn't seem as too big of a buff as long as its traded for a cd on the snare. And it wouldn't make the ability unbalanced in non group vs group situation.

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repel
Game Artist
Posts: 62

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#78 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 3:30 pm

Spoiler:
Danielle wrote: 1) Change the WE/WH slows, so that the slow applies when an enemy is hit from the back OR from the sides.
2) Change the WE/WH slows, so that a 40% slow applies from behind and a 20% slow applies when the enemy is hit from a side.
3) Change the way the game interprets where strafing targets are facing, so that a low angle strafe will still result in a an attack/spell from the back being evaluated as an attack from the back.
4) Leave the slow as it is, but give WE/WH an additional melee slow skill.
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Tyr
Posts: 6

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#79 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:08 pm

Aside from the fact that wh/we are strong in point damage, i think their niche is extremely small. That's not entirely a problem of RoR, it was also on live. WH/WE are very restricted in using their abilities because of the position requirement. A good player doesn't reveal his back and without any slow you don't get behind them to release the full potential. Both classes are very squishy, must talent deeply into mastery trees to specialize into one situational role. 1on1 is extremely rare nowadays and for 6vs6 they don't bring anything on the table that others can't do.

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Chaoself
Posts: 218

Re: A suggestion for a Throwing Dagger/Snap Shot change.

Post#80 » Sat Oct 15, 2016 5:05 pm

noisestorm wrote:While i really like #4 it comes with huge Issues, if you say you say it needs to be stacked for a proper slow. First of all, WH/We are supposed to be glass cannon DPS classes, having them use a low dmg spell for a slow is already meh. Having them use the same bad spell at least 2 or better 3 times to actually get an appropriate effect out of it is a huge dmg loss and also a ridiculous AP drain on a class that already is ap starved in the first place. Also you should not forget that all 3 stacks are gone with 1 single cleanse on top of it!

While i'd like have the spell function exactly like your normal Melee Slow (5/10 sec CD with fixed 40% slow), i'd rather have Snap Shot be a ranged slow with no condition and a 5-10 second CD instead. IF the decision comes down to change the stackable dots, then simply mirror it to become the kotbs slow, but please forget a stacking slow mechanic.
I would agree with Snap Shot being a ranged slow with CD. What WE/WH lacks is movility and it would help to balance the mdps against that madness of rdps fest.
P.D: stacking EB and Fervor will make it worthless anyways, will nerf your burst badly so no matter if you can snare when you cant kill fast on WE/WH.

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