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[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

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Korhill
Posts: 114

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#191 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 7:21 pm

Hello,

in my opinion the 10 secounds change (even 5 seconds) effects the internal balance. Of course it depends what playstyle you have with the WL. Like someone who had used pounce as quick kit to change field position as you mentioned.
I mean Jump in do your burst and after after 3 seconds you should know already if you can or cant kill it because either pet is already dead (and you are not a danger anymore) or you run out of AP, or he is guarded, spam healed etcc.
With 10 seconds the WL is now kinda screwed since he has almost no defensive tools (beside AOE detaunt). And when you pounce to a target you get alot of attention.

And that was a playstyle of some WL players and they loved it (real mobility), even if they had so many disadvantages. And know they cant do that anymore.

People had always a Counter for pounce and not just for pounce, even for most of the WL abilities by just killing the pet.

Sorry that it is a short reply. My time is limited today and i wanted to add something.

Have a good day!

Greetings
Khorhall

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albionrare
Posts: 58

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#192 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:48 am

Spoiler:
Korhill wrote:Hello,

in my opinion the 10 secounds change (even 5 seconds) effects the internal balance. Of course it depends what playstyle you have with the WL. Like someone who had used pounce as quick kit to change field position as you mentioned.
I mean Jump in do your burst and after after 3 seconds you should know already if you can or cant kill it because either pet is already dead (and you are not a danger anymore) or you run out of AP, or he is guarded, spam healed etcc.
With 10 seconds the WL is now kinda screwed since he has almost no defensive tools (beside AOE detaunt). And when you pounce to a target you get alot of attention.

And that was a playstyle of some WL players and they loved it (real mobility), even if they had so many disadvantages. And know they cant do that anymore.

People had always a Counter for pounce and not just for pounce, even for most of the WL abilities by just killing the pet.

Sorry that it is a short reply. My time is limited today and i wanted to add something.

Have a good day!

Greetings
Khorhall

Like every other mdps indeed.
Literally the post above the one you quoted was moderated for this exact thing. Read the Balance Forum rules, and maybe pay some attention to moderation in the thread.

- wargrimnir

User was warned for this post.

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Panzerkasper
Posts: 572

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#193 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:21 am

Korhill wrote:Hello,

in my opinion the 10 secounds change (even 5 seconds) effects the internal balance. Of course it depends what playstyle you have with the WL. Like someone who had used pounce as quick kit to change field position as you mentioned.
I mean Jump in do your burst and after after 3 seconds you should know already if you can or cant kill it because either pet is already dead (and you are not a danger anymore) or you run out of AP, or he is guarded, spam healed etcc.
With 10 seconds the WL is now kinda screwed since he has almost no defensive tools (beside AOE detaunt). And when you pounce to a target you get alot of attention.

And that was a playstyle of some WL players and they loved it (real mobility), even if they had so many disadvantages. And know they cant do that anymore.

People had always a Counter for pounce and not just for pounce, even for most of the WL abilities by just killing the pet.

Sorry that it is a short reply. My time is limited today and i wanted to add something.

Have a good day!

Greetings
Khorhall
Yes it effecty the internal balance, but in a good way. I shall quote myself here from the first page of this thread:
I always had in mind, that Pounce was a countertool to kiting. You get kicked away or rooted and you pounce to close the gap again. So real kiting classes (shammy, SH) actually have multiple tools to get out of the situation, but the no cooldown punce just makes kiting completly obsolete. It is not just a countertool you have to use wise to outplay someone it is a skill to completly nullify the mechanic of Kiting.
There were tools to counter it to some point (Knockbacks/snares were completly countered by a no cd pounce btw), but these tools were roots or KDs and root is not a very reliable tool. The two major kiting classes shammy/SH have neither of it.

What defensive Tools do you think have other mpds classes? WH/WE have the selfkick (deserved, because they are such squishy classes) but what about the other 3 classes? Aoe detaunt, snare/root break and flee/charge (btw slayer and choppa have it even worse because most of the time they need 2gcds to effectivly detaunt-> rage remove+detaunt). That is all there is, so pls explain why the WL should have it better?

The changes made to pounce are absolutly the right way.
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Kali14
Banned
Posts: 340

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#194 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:10 am

WLs don't use pounce to attack healers and RDPS. They use pounce to finish someones kill because they almost never don't have healdebuff. And in SC they usually run away from main battle and try ganking solo in SC. For me they deserve for pounce 5 min CD.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#195 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:20 am

My .2$

Pounce can't be countered anymore (RD/FG, Pounce, Cleave Limb, ...) is extremely efficient and deserves a 15-30s CD. I think even more so on a class that has Ensnare, Fetch, Charge and 100% up "remote controlled snare" on the pet.

(Or being reverted back to being less effective).

Compared to FoF/ensnare which partially was about there being no counter play RD/Pounce is available from first second of combat and there really is no counter play.

Arguably it is not a ranged snare (15-20 CDs) but it is more like a self speed buff (Charge, Flee) and all those come in at 30s CDs. I'd say charge in its current form is most "look alike".

It is not about trashing WLs but more of a making similar abilities same.
Last edited by Bozzax on Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Theseus
Posts: 526

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#196 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 8:23 am

Kali14 wrote:WLs don't use pounce to attack healers and RDPS. They use pounce to finish someones kill because they almost never don't have healdebuff. And in SC they usually run away from main battle and try ganking solo in SC. For me they deserve for pounce 5 min CD.
A statement which is neither true nor very objective.

You are right on the Healdebuff, WL gets that mostly with RR 60 for the normal builds, but they dont need it for RDPS. So making skills after your own animosity wouldnt work so well, I think.
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Korhill
Posts: 114

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#197 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:19 am

@panzerkasper I mean for example stun, disarm, self heal, a KD that is timeable, defensive morals, or even monstro stance with his benefits.
Actually with 5 second CD and the speed buff it is much harder to kite now for them. So it was not a fix in this way rather it killed the playstyle of the WL.

The outgoing healdebuff is now more worthless. Atleast before you could pounce to a healer first healdebuff him than immediately pounce to the mdps and assist your team. This isnt impossible anymore what makes the outgoing healdebuff mosty worthless on the WL with a CD

Btw why should you use an outgoing healdebuff on a rdps or mdps^^

Greetings
Khorhall

kryss
Posts: 456

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#198 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:22 am

Spoiler:
Bozzax wrote:My .2$

Pounce can't be countered anymore (RD/FG, Pounce, Cleave Limb, ...) is extremely efficient and deserves a 15-30s CD. I think even more so on a class that has Ensnare, Fetch, Charge and 100% up "remote controlled snare" on the pet.

Compared to FoF/ensnare which partially was about there being no counter play RD/Pounce is available from first second of combat and there really is no counter play.

(Or being reverted back to being less effective).

Arguably it is not a ranged snare (15-20 CDs) but it is more like a self speed buff (Charge, Flee) and all those come in at 30s CDs. I'd say charge in its current form is most "look alike".

It is not about trashing WLs but more of a making similar abilities same.
Never happy huh? There are many counterplays to a WL jumping in to kill a target, if you can't figure them out it's not our problem. Lack of skill is not a valid argument to overnerf an already nerfed class.
It doesn't work like that here. You know several counterplays? Explain them to support your argument. "L2P" is not allowed in this forum, read the rules - Penril.

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Panzerkasper
Posts: 572

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#199 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:54 am

Korhill wrote:@panzerkasper I mean for example stun, disarm, self heal, a KD that is timeable, defensive morals, or even monstro stance with his benefits.
Actually with 5 second CD and the speed buff it is much harder to kite now for them. So it was not a fix in this way rather it killed the playstyle of the WL.

The outgoing healdebuff is now more worthless. Atleast before you could pounce to a healer first healdebuff him than immediately pounce to the mdps and assist your team. This isnt impossible anymore what makes the outgoing healdebuff mosty worthless on the WL with a CD

Btw why should you use an outgoing healdebuff on a rdps or mdps^^

Greetings
Khorhall
Stuns, disarm and Kd all go on the same immunity timer. All of them disable the Lion for maybe 3-4 sec and them he can just move freely for another 30 sec or so. How is that a valuable counter if he can just pounce and 5s snare you and then just punce again? Even the 5 s Cd on pounce made no difference whatsoever, even 10s is not that hard of a nerf.
Selfheal and defensive morales are no viable argument in my opinion, since it is not a special tool to counter gap close but counter damage/assist in general.
Order in general has some good tools to counter kiting in every setup (Aoe snares, ranged snares, ranged Kd on 2/3 range classes, etc).

The outgoing HD argument is not very viable. Shaman/Zealot will just cleanse it and keep healing. Outgoing Hd are only really strong if you combine it with an incomingHD.
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30/12/2018 RIP 2h Chosen

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Bozzax
Posts: 2477

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#200 » Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:10 am

Pounce currently is more effective then Charge (as a gap closer)

- Quicker, less reaction time vs can be pre kited as there is travel time
- Ignores terrain vs must adhere to terrain
- Does damage vs no damage
- 30AP vs 0AP
- 10s CD vs 30s CD
- Needs a target vs free movement

All counter plays you can "conjure up" are the same you'd use vs Charge and RD/FD amplifies the efficiency of charge/pounce exactly the same way. That is why a self speed buff > snare
overnerf an already nerfed class
You mean the tougher pet?
Or the pounce-miss-fire fix?
The change to pounce itself which we are discussing?

Sinced Punce now is more efficient then charge and is added on top of having charge I'd prefer a 15-30s CD ye. Happiness has little to do with it.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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