Recent Topics

Ads

[Implementation Feedback] White Lion - Pounce

After feedback has reached it's viable limit, it will retire here to keep the main section clean and tidy.

Moderators: Balance Forum Mod, Developer, Game Master, Community Manager, Moderator, Management, Web Developer

User avatar
Tesq
Suspended
Posts: 5346

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#181 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:29 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
TenTonHammer wrote:
peterthepan3 wrote:WL's Pounce is supposed to be the counter to these classes' kiting ability.
A counter, not THE counter
You shouldnt put soo much emphasis like this is the only catch/CC ability available to order
Oh of course there are other counters (ranged KD, charge), but a slayer or witch hunter can get kited very easily by a good shaman and in terms of melee classes there aren't many counters other than charge.
shatter limbs is a counter to everything litteraly , snare have a 10 sec cd, g-cleane have a 10 sec CD and kite became more hard, since both pounce and shatter limbs are really good to offensively or defensively disrupt the enemy play and since the g-cleanse was nerfed and since order still have 2x rkd at demand the answer is no, it's plain full of couters and those are almost spamable (pouce got just hit by a CD) while the speed tactic of Shammy require to proc and do not counter a 40% snare totally, so unless your realm have no ranged snare ppl should not complain about shammy.
Image

-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

Ads
User avatar
sydd
Posts: 61

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#182 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:46 pm

Spoiler:
In all the games I've played the nerf abilities are always caused by the complaints of one faction against the other. After two million of complaints developers come to nerf a class making it virtually unplayable for a period of time and this server is no exception. When someone will realize that there will be 2 WL every 1,000 players and slayer proliferate like mushrooms dealing aoe numbers thanks to ID then again the complaints will begin and after the millionth one the nerf will touch the slayer, and so on. This also applies to the destru side, of course.

But the the sh arrows that pass through the walls of the keep and buildings reaching you wherever, slow you down from 1000km as well as the skill of the magus that crit you for 4k of damage from 1000km away now are ok, tomorrow will see.

No news, no problem, never mind, nothing we can do but take notice.
Off topic. Read the Balance Forum rules.

- wargrimnir

User avatar
dur3al
Posts: 252

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#183 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:30 pm

After playing with it a bit I don't think its completely bad the increase from 5s to 10s, you just got to be more mindful with your pounces even more.

One thing that annoys me is that when you pounce into a target who has other players around him, you usually end up getting sort of stuck inside one of them (or body blocked) losing the precious time with the increased speed proc after pounce to catch the target at all. Its sort of like when you get stuck into terrain and have to wait 1-2 seconds before your character gets "teleported" so you move again.. so the 2 seconds seems like a very small window considering this - which I don't think will be fixed anytime soon (maybe I'm wrong?).

So if you will go forward with the 10s cooldown, i'd add the speed increase to 50% for 2s, or 40% for 3s. Or just go back to the 5s cooldown but with speed increase of 25 or 30% for 2s (don't remember what was it).
Last edited by dur3al on Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Martyr's Square: Sync & Nerfedbuttons - enigma
Martyr's Square: Dureal & Method - Disrespect/It's Orz again
Badlands: Dureal & Alatheus - Exo
Karak-Norn: Sejanus - Blitz/Elementz

User avatar
wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 5731
Contact:

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#184 » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:39 pm

Stick to the topic at hand please.

What did the previous change affect?
- 5s CD on the ability use.
Was this effective? Did it put the WL into situations that made it impossible to maintain their state as a mobile melee DPS class? Was the reduced ability to spam Pounce a significantly detrimental factor to their role in a group?

- 2s speed boost for 30% (breaks on ability use)
Was this effective? Did the speed boost last long enough to close the gap imposed by the mechanic of the skill? Both offensively and defensively, was the speed boost a high enough percentage to close the gap, or escape after landing near a target on your frontlines?

The next iteration for testing increases both of these values.
- 10s CD on ability use.
This will leave a longer window of time open for counter-play by the enemy team before the WL can initiate a dramatic change in field position. When you consider field position, this cooldown is more in-line with any other ability (mainly punts), despite punts granting CC immunity.

- 3s speed boost for 35% (breaks on ability use)
Improving the duration and power of the speed boost to this level should ensure the WL will certainly catch his target as early reports from the previous level of the effect were positive. The intent with this portion is to allow the WL a chance to land a second ability after the pounce. However, they, like every other class, will be subject to CC as a viable counterplay.

With these changes we are looking for feedback on the internal and external effects on the class. Internal balance means that Pounce is used as a specific tool in their kit to change field position. Externally means their role in a group serves an effective function where having a WL in the team means a reliable MDPS who can catch a target, or assist an ally within range. How is Pounce over/under-powered (or balanced) as a tool in their overall kit? How is their group function changed, for better or worse?

Discussions about overall faction imbalance is not needed or wanted. Nor is unsubstantiated whine about the changes. Facts. Details. Reasonable arguments. Leave the rest of it out.
Image
[email protected] for exploits and cheaters.
grimnir.me Some old WAR blog

Mausini
Posts: 78

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#185 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 10:52 am

The speedboost:
The new speedboost helps a lot sticking to a target and getting the snare on the target. It works reliable now even with a little lag around.
The 2 second version was very tight timing wise. The speedbuff went of in the moment you pressed your snare exept the target was sationary.

Cooldown:
With the 5 second version pounce was more or less always available if needed. I was able to pounce in and out again. It feld very fluently and spamming it wasn't an issue anymore because you were still able to catch stuff. With the 10 second version I tend not to use Charge for gapclosing because:

1) I dont need it to catch people anymore. I did always reach the desired target except stuff like bodyblocks and cc prefented it (which is totaly fine for me)
2) Because I start using it more for disengaging after I pounced in.

Quiet often I wanted to pounce again but needed to wait for 2-3 seconds for the cooldown. (But feeled ok too)
My feeling is that another 5 seconds cooldown would be to much without compensation (Damage or utility).

Feedback to internal and external effects:
Just some ideas...
With the added cooldown, changing the damage to AOE feels viable again. It would help WL with pressuring backlines. WL are missing viable AOE options and thats one of the major reasons why Slayer are prefered as MDSP in a lot of group setups.
The Whirling Axe buff was cool but hunter should return to a AOE focused skilltree. Right now its more of a utility tree with mobility and armor debuff.
I would vote for another small cooldown increase of maybe 2 seconds for getting the AOE effect back.

If AOE is not an option or I would vote for pounce becoming a core skill because of how important and class defining it is right now. This would again open build and design space.

I already stated that WL has some serious problems with AP management. Maybe a tactic that expands pounce with a % AP cost decrease for the next following 2-3 attacks would help getting the job done. AOE added with a tactic would be another idea if aoe Pounce as core is to much.

Why do I think that is important?
Pounce is a big "Here I am please kill me" button. Normaly everyone immediately turns around and starts beating you.
It't the definition of a high risk high reward skill if the cooldown is set appropriatly. But it does not feel very rewardfull if you pounce in and dont have the AP to unload your damage and press Submission for not getting instant gibbed.

I think thats the reason why WH/WE have such a mechanic as part of their core engagement skills. Here we do have again a high risk high reward move.

In conclusion:
The changes are fine for me and pounce feels like it works like intended now. The cooldown of 10 seconds openes a timeframe for counterplay which is ok.
I would prefere a even more heavy "all in" feeling after pouncing. The way of thinking about it as a high risk high reward way of using is should be discussed furtherly.

I hope that feedback is ok. I don't know if the feedback was in line with your request @wargrimnir or a little to much.

User avatar
peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#186 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:39 am

Making Pounce aoe is silly imo as the ability is designed to catapult you onto one person without breaking any CC. Also: in a competitive setting, you may have someone stagger a healer/tank while the WL/SM jump onto another healer, and if pounce breaks the stagger it's pointless.
Image

User avatar
Theseus
Posts: 519

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#187 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:17 pm

Mausini wrote:The speedboost:
The new speedboost helps a lot sticking to a target and getting the snare on the target. It works reliable now even with a little lag around.
The 2 second version was very tight timing wise. The speedbuff went of in the moment you pressed your snare exept the target was sationary.

Cooldown:
With the 5 second version pounce was more or less always available if needed. I was able to pounce in and out again. It feld very fluently and spamming it wasn't an issue anymore because you were still able to catch stuff. With the 10 second version I tend not to use Charge for gapclosing because:

1) I dont need it to catch people anymore. I did always reach the desired target except stuff like bodyblocks and cc prefented it (which is totaly fine for me)
2) Because I start using it more for disengaging after I pounced in.

Quiet often I wanted to pounce again but needed to wait for 2-3 seconds for the cooldown. (But feeled ok too)
My feeling is that another 5 seconds cooldown would be to much without compensation (Damage or utility).

Feedback to internal and external effects:
Just some ideas...
With the added cooldown, changing the damage to AOE feels viable again. It would help WL with pressuring backlines. WL are missing viable AOE options and thats one of the major reasons why Slayer are prefered as MDSP in a lot of group setups.
The Whirling Axe buff was cool but hunter should return to a AOE focused skilltree. Right now its more of a utility tree with mobility and armor debuff.
I would vote for another small cooldown increase of maybe 2 seconds for getting the AOE effect back.

If AOE is not an option or I would vote for pounce becoming a core skill because of how important and class defining it is right now. This would again open build and design space.

I already stated that WL has some serious problems with AP management. Maybe a tactic that expands pounce with a % AP cost decrease for the next following 2-3 attacks would help getting the job done. AOE added with a tactic would be another idea if aoe Pounce as core is to much.

Why do I think that is important?
Pounce is a big "Here I am please kill me" button. Normaly everyone immediately turns around and starts beating you.
It't the definition of a high risk high reward skill if the cooldown is set appropriatly. But it does not feel very rewardfull if you pounce in and dont have the AP to unload your damage and press Submission for not getting instant gibbed.

I think thats the reason why WH/WE have such a mechanic as part of their core engagement skills. Here we do have again a high risk high reward move.

In conclusion:
The changes are fine for me and pounce feels like it works like intended now. The cooldown of 10 seconds openes a timeframe for counterplay which is ok.
I would prefere a even more heavy "all in" feeling after pouncing. The way of thinking about it as a high risk high reward way of using is should be discussed furtherly.

I hope that feedback is ok. I don't know if the feedback was in line with your request @wargrimnir or a little to much.
I also could live with the current couldown, even as I would decrease it for about 2 sec, so you can use it better as a means of guerilla tactic, which it is to me. But my main point here is, I am heavily opposed to adding any more AoE Damage to the game. We have way to many AoE Skills in this game as it is.
Andyrion Ulthenair
Arphyrion Soulblade

Mausini
Posts: 78

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#188 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:25 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:Making Pounce aoe is silly imo as the ability is designed to catapult you onto one person without breaking any CC. Also: in a competitive setting, you may have someone stagger a healer/tank while the WL/SM jump onto another healer, and if pounce breaks the stagger it's pointless.
You are right with the AOE part. Thats why a tactic for it would be nice. In PUG SC or RoR for example I would take the AOE anyday over the chance to break a stagger.

Ads
User avatar
Tesq
Suspended
Posts: 5346

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#189 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:29 pm

pounce was aoe , that said pounce broke stager that way, the point of the pounce it's that you do not need it in the aoe spec and you need it in st one:
maybe it should for real be moved outside, and make it core and 1 skill should made aoe.

pounce and GTTC have in fact some (or had before aoe remove) some kind of cross mirror. They may be fix togheter for realm balance both st or both aoe.
Image

-"Loop warned into oblivion" --> smell like chaosy enought :D
-Nazgul--> ambitious but rubbish, cit Blast :D
-GMs --> dosent matter what they say not, they get offend by colors so watch out plebs! :D

User avatar
Zaccar20
Posts: 76

Re: White Lion - Pounce

Post#190 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:34 pm

Spoiler:
dur3al wrote:After playing with it a bit I don't think its completely bad the increase from 5s to 10s, you just got to be more mindful with your pounces even more.

One thing that annoys me is that when you pounce into a target who has other players around him, you usually end up getting sort of stuck inside one of them (or body blocked) losing the precious time with the increased speed proc after pounce to catch the target at all. Its sort of like when you get stuck into terrain and have to wait 1-2 seconds before your character gets "teleported" so you move again.. so the 2 seconds seems like a very small window considering this - which I don't think will be fixed anytime soon (maybe I'm wrong?).

So if you will go forward with the 10s cooldown, i'd add the speed increase to 50% for 2s, or 40% for 3s. Or just go back to the 5s cooldown but with speed increase of 25 or 30% for 2s (don't remember what was it).
Welcome to the problems of all other melees ;)
Welcome to the Balance Forum. Read the rules. Contribute to the conversation at hand with arguments and counters. We have no use for +1 posts here.

- wargrimnir
Zaccar 40/50 Zealot

Aeedys 40/63 WE

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron