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[Implementation Feedback] RvR design

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Ninepaces
Posts: 313

Re: RvR design

Post#91 » Mon Nov 28, 2016 5:18 pm

Spoiler:
^dur3al with one of the better posts in a while.
"+1" in balance forum - Azarael

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Haojin
Posts: 1062

Re: RvR design

Post#92 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 4:36 pm

Some suggestions from Changelog 25/11 Thread.
Spoiler:
Haojin wrote:I'll make a huge post again Aza, before of that:

1-I agree with Morf's points. Human nature can't be tamed, especialy in open-pvp games. I'm saying this with 16-17 year mmorpg experience. a friendly reminder, whenever you "punish" instead of "fix" you'll lose players. [ Example: Porn Factory not playing anymore and i see less people on T4 these days. ]

2-Please define "zerg" and "blob". New cannon/aoe rework system punishes "blob" not "zerg". Here whats happening atm:

Scenario 1: If you're an attacker whole realm have to protect ram and sieges for keep assault. After that whole realm aka zerg have to use brute force to takedown keep. There is no way to take a keep with equal numbers. This is the destiny of game.

Scenario 2: If you're a defender, you need to camp/zerg the BO's which is close to keep for resource flow. This is happening especially in CW, KV, Eataine.

Suggestion 1: Make the BO's really hard, maybe a weak version of keep lord with loads of npcs. BO's should be tagged by 6 people for every 5-10 min, otherwise it should burn itself.

Suggestion 2: If you want to split more people on the lake, make the resources carried by 6 or 12 man [ deliver bonus should be increased ]. Atm 2 people can do the whole resource carry/taking BO job.

Suggestion 3: Add the contribution connected carrying resources-tagging BO's.

I agree my suggestions got weak spots but playing with numbers won't split the zerg, touching map is.

Cannons/Aoe rework will only change the process not the main design "Resource Flow - Protecting Siege " and organized guilds will be more dominant than ever. We already got couple of solutions to counter AoE rework which is impossible to execute by pugs.

3- Some map desings and BO's forces people to blob even they want to spread out, we'll see huge whine thread after you rework aoe. For example: IH in KV , GK in TM , DV in TM , Manor in Eataine, Armory in Praag, Manor in Reikland, Barracks in Caledor.

4-Allowing gold trade between realms is completely a joke if you want to stop xrealming. You should ban this for the beginning.

5- Main problem of RVR is community and population based, RoR team should do something about it.



Some feedback for RvR activity [ a fresh thread ] , you can understand why somedays are destro zerging some days are order: Some suggestions from RvR Design thread about community issues:
Spoiler:
Haojin wrote:
2-Community Issues

a-Main problem of RVR "mostly" community related ( both old and new system ). Most of RVR players are casuals and they dont want to take initiative and they don't know what they gonna do ( Protecting BO's, Gathering Resources, Bringing Siege ect). If you want to see fully working RVR system, both realms needs practice.

Suggestion 5: Maybe you can set some GM's for weekly RVR events [maybe 2 day in a week] .
Example:viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14599

The whole new system is strange for everyone, learning with fun will stop whining i hope.

b- The whole RVR system is all about attacking or defending. What if both sides prefers defending keeps or meaningless skirmish between warcamps ? RVR motivation will be lost [Example: Porn Factory not making warbands anymore. ]

Suggestion 6: If one sides keep hits level X, they have to hit enemies outer door in every X minutes, otherwise high level keep loses all rank and gives the stars opposite realm. This may encourage people to attack than defend.
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Telen
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Re: RvR design

Post#93 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:11 pm

I think one of the big problems is mid level 30s with renown ranks in the low teens running around in pug warbands not following orders chasing all over the map standing in oil and ignoring posterns. As they havent done any rvr since tier 1 due to the empty tiers. Id knock them back down until they hit renown 40 so they can get used to the system.
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blaqwar
Posts: 471

Re: RvR design

Post#94 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:20 pm

Telen wrote:I think one of the big problems is mid level 30s with renown ranks in the low teens running around in pug warbands not following orders chasing all over the map standing in oil and ignoring posterns. As they havent done any rvr since tier 1 due to the empty tiers. Id knock them back down until they hit renown 40 so they can get used to the system.
Exactly, this one of the drawbacks of abandoning T2/T3 in favour of pooling people in T4 to test the changes there. Despite what the majority of the regular posters on these forums think, not everyone returning/starting fresh on the server is as pro as them. Skipping lower tiers creates a crowd of people that make dubious testers and skewes test results.

The only question is how big is this crowd and how exactly this situation affects ORvR.

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dur3al
Posts: 251

Re: RvR design

Post#95 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 5:26 pm

I think the main problem with T2/T3 is the fact that a new player who try out the game will simply quit at T2 since he has no means to power level on his own, and probably don't even know that the game has population in T4. So he'll just leave thinking the game is dead. Unless he has a group of player to guide and power level him.

The amount of "noobs" in T4 is not such a huge issue in my book, like 80% of seasoned players play like noobs anyway, so it doesn't matter as much. And even some "good" players hide in the zerg in order to farm kills, so its not really about that.
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Gnarlimus
Posts: 12

Re: RvR design

Post#96 » Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:24 pm

wanted to put this into rvr design instead of patch notes.

in my first post regarding balance i said something to the effect of "this is all on players, not the game." and my opinion is still the same, many patches have come in and the game remains the same, there are some new codes whirling in the background but the gameplay is exactly the same. and like morf said in the other post I applaud your efforts! but I to understand exactly why it will never change.

Much like my homies the terran's aza you will find out the zerg can never truly be stopped! players are going to blob like that, it is completly unavoidable. everytime in the lake if they arent with a group themselves. its logical. why be alone in a warzone? if you are guildless you will just be like a moth to the...blob!

also i see in the thread we have guys bringing up t2/t3 and i think that might have an effect, the greenest people will appear in t4. they will need to blob to even get a grip of whats happening and then kaboom obliterated by cannons. not an enemy player in sight. thats is terrible gameplay and would turn me off immediatly if I didnt already know where to be and the game in general.

My advice.
the best thing about this game is its use of the trinity in pvp and its classes try and keep that on the forefront, not the cannons. moral bombing is far healthier than these cannons ever have been or will be. atleast people actually have to use their characters to get a moral bomb going.

the best change you have come up with so far? the postern door absolutley, that is a complaint i have had since retail, one door to enter a keep is just complete idiocy. so more power to you for that one!

peace out
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Tesq
Posts: 5704

Re: RvR design

Post#97 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 12:30 am

i agree on the hard to def part of the flag and the thing that cannons punish the blob not the zerg

regarding cannons:
A) you punish zerg by increase the explosion range and removing the numebr cap.
B) you punish blob by increase the damage due to ppl concentrations instead

so A would be preferable than B(which is the current implementation).

regarding flags being hard to def.
A) mobs need to reset easier
B)flags should have a way to get base cannons around them (of course they should be less powerfull than now or be a less powerfull version)
C) flag had a hero in live idk why it was removed here by some patch ago, it should do too some aoe damages of course less powerfull version of keep lord.
D)exept supply there is no need to def one once you have a 5 stars vs a 0 stars, when you siege you ingore the flag. Flags should also confer some bonuses while under your controll (so supply will have a direct effect on you)
E)the rework you have done to Battle of praag was awsome you should do that for some flags too rvr feel way to much empty in some cases.
F)if you can do that you should take into consideration to add a 5th flag in every zone because it would help spread even more the ppl.


all of this should be linked and scale with aao.

regarding keep:
siege are too much linear: kill 2x door, kill lord take keep; with the new addition of be able to pass behind from poster you made a way to break the funnel but to make things more interesting..
A) add outer wall to be claimable (not inside room but on sides of it in 2 different point sc style) if you have not both point under your controll ram is disable.
B)add a flag into lord room that need to be tap after had kill the keep lord (keep lord should have a high resp timer then, also add timer to cap the keep of 5 min).
C)make keep protection more dynamic(someone suggested it alredy ) keep should be less protected with lower rank.
D) split in 2 keep rank and supply rank, so instead drop due to supply, keep level will drop by damages and stuff like that. The supply will be used for increase keep leve/defense or build sieges weapons. So for exemple keep lord is a champion , with some resource it became a hero, when he dies the new one will pop champion etc.
E)linked this to guild controll somehow.
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blaqwar
Posts: 471

Re: RvR design

Post#98 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:08 pm

The event held yesterday reminded me of a very simple and painful truth about this game. It's a mass PvP game with an engine that cannot support mass PvP. This has been an issue since the game came out and part of the reason why it did so poorly. Mythic have tried their best to solve this problem and seem to have failed, since in the end we had things like instanced city fights and supply lines at Fortresses. Their solution to servers dying under mass PvP was to break it into pieces, as the game engine (server technology?) can't handle it. I'm not knowledgable enough in coding or game servers to be able to tell what exactly is causing such issues but it always felt like it was the collision calculations and that's something the game cannot do without.

As highly as everyone thinks of the RoR dev team I can't help but think that the flaws of the game engine is not an area where you guys can make improvements where Mythic have failed. I imagine RoR can't come even close to the amount of money and time thrown at the server tech and development by the original dev team, so I can't see how progress can be made on that front.

I have high hopes for this project and in my mind the future of the server will be giant battles like the one we had yesterday, only every weekend. But even if you fix the issue with unknown packets crashing clients the battles of 300 vs 300 people will still bring the server to a grind and make the game unplayable.

I know Azarael's stance on allowing other zones to be contested to spread out the population is one of fixing the ORvR system on a smaller scale first before tackling the issue of having multiple contested zones up. And I realise that the intention of the ORvR changes has been to spread people out and avoid zerging. But it seems to me that sooner or later, as the population numbers rise (normally a welcome sight - the more the merrirer) we will get into the territory of the server being unable to handle the number of players in a single zone on a regular RvR evening.

These paragraphs are a preface to the question gnawing at the back of my mind; have these facts and issues been considered by the dev team? Or are we at the point of simply having faith in the development of an ORvR system that will spread out the population and avoid the overcrowding problem entirely?

I simply want to ease my mind, flashbacks of the early days of retail and later on fortress days have made me worried that RoR might suffer from crippling underlying issues that cannot be easily solved and are not a type of a "cross that bridge when we get to it" issue.

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Azarael
Posts: 5332

Re: RvR design

Post#99 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:16 pm

Well, I've got good news and bad news.

The good news? The particular limit that was hit yesterday on the server itself is because of the current region model's threading, and can be resolved.
The bad news? There are other limits and one of them's on the client.

Large scale combat is subject to the n^2 law of information distribution - any event affecting one actor must be broadcast to all of its peers, and that actor also receives events from all other peers. This means that the load increases by a factor of 4 for every doubling in population in one area, and that's a pretty significant chunk of the headroom that we have.

Additionally, if the client itself produces low FPS in large battles, and this has nothing to do with the packets we're sending and is a weakness of the game engine, then there is absolutely nothing we can do, and that imposes an absolute maximum on the size of the battles we can support. If it should be proven that battles above a certain playercount cause the client to lag in and of itself, and we do not succeed in discouraging battles of such size, then we will have to resort to flashmob dispersion techniques or other elements designed to make force concentrations of that size completely unviable.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: RvR design

Post#100 » Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:31 pm

In hindsight dividing the t4 warfare into several zones might have helped alleviate the issue of freezing lags, back on live.

Heck, even keep sieges might become more tolerable once you divide the objects; I suggested in some other thread the idea of having 6 flags to capture (all guarded by strong mobs), 3 inside the keep on various floors and the rest divided on outer wall - the Keep Boss might still guard the last flag.
The idea being that instead of everyone rushing to one laggy room, people need to divide themselves to accomplish different objectives, hopefully resulting in less lag and more enjoyable playing.

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