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[Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

After feedback has reached it's viable limit, it will retire here to keep the main section clean and tidy.

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roadkillrobin
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#171 » Wed May 31, 2017 4:28 pm

Specialpatrol wrote:
roadkillrobin wrote:
Specialpatrol wrote:
What's your point with this? All incoming heal debuffs stacks with outgoing ones. So a kotbs and a slayer/WH etc are capable of doing the same thing. A WH is capable of doing it solo even - by using Bullets of Confession (outgoing heal debuff) together with Punish the False (incoming heal debuff ability). I'm sure there's similar combos available for Destruction.
No I meam, WP kept at 25% HD by Mythic was moast likly due to the reason that order got more stacking buffs and debuffs then Destro do aswll as static AoE outgoing HD one that stacks with every other inc HD in the game which could ressault in problems if a class like WP wich can be increable hard to get rid of when guarded by the Kotbs and able to keep em both up against vastly superior numbers gain acess to a powerful tool like a 50%, 100% uptime healdebuff aswell. The problem is not so much with WP having the healdebuff but rather that Kotbs is a massivly broken class with waaaaay to much flexabillity and utillity.
And when Chosen and DoK HD debuffs stacked it was deemed to powerfull but not when WP and Kotbs can basicly do the same thing.

I would really keep an close eye on this. I know we're not allowed to come with imput on anything ballance related lower then 6mans. But what happens if duos start to be competative against the 6 mans?
And why aren't you concerned about BG + dps DoK combo? With tactic BG has a 50% outgoing heal debuff, while the DoK can spam aoe 50% incoming heal debuffs (whenever it crits with Essence Lash, for instance). It's more powerful than the kotbs + WP combo that you mention.
No it's not. In a scenario with 2 healers vs 2 healers or a 6v6, and the aura hits both the healers and inc healdebuff on 1 of the healers it will be the same as having one healer with 50% inc + - 50% out healdebuff and you're attacking the healer. But in a standard 12v12 scenario and both groups have 2 healers the Kotbs+WP debuffs will be stronger. This makes the Kotbs+WP stronger potential. You're missing that the Kotbs Aura is a static AoE that have the potential to debuff ALL outgoin heals. Not just one healer.

And it's not like WP can't do the same thing with a IB.
Last edited by roadkillrobin on Wed May 31, 2017 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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freshour
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#172 » Wed May 31, 2017 4:33 pm

In reference to the DoK comment....

Because SPAM AOE - is a clear sign you've never played a DoK lol. You can't spam aoe. Essence lash is a pretty small radius, can be parried, so while sure you can use your ranged (axethrow equiv) you are not spamming. But sure, single target you can have one guy heal debuffed nearly 100% of the time. But seeing how the DoK had a gigantor DPS nerf with the 1 second ICD, I'd be more than happy to remove one of the only things remotely making DD DoK viable if you gave back a hell of a lot more to compensate lol.

If it was an issue you'd see a crap load of DPS DoK's and BG's running around and tralalalala 'ing orders RDPS. But you don't... I argue that it is one of the best HD's in the game, but killing people in SC's is about single target. So in reality it is no better than a SH/SW HD. Now if order has a massive meta shift to all MDPS - then sure I bet it would be pretty easy to HD a lot of people. It lasts 5 seconds.. In a kite meta, and it is cleansable. But those are just facts, no worries :D

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Specialpatrol
Posts: 209

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#173 » Wed May 31, 2017 5:22 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:
Specialpatrol wrote:
roadkillrobin wrote:
No I meam, WP kept at 25% HD by Mythic was moast likly due to the reason that order got more stacking buffs and debuffs then Destro do aswll as static AoE outgoing HD one that stacks with every other inc HD in the game which could ressault in problems if a class like WP wich can be increable hard to get rid of when guarded by the Kotbs and able to keep em both up against vastly superior numbers gain acess to a powerful tool like a 50%, 100% uptime healdebuff aswell. The problem is not so much with WP having the healdebuff but rather that Kotbs is a massivly broken class with waaaaay to much flexabillity and utillity.
And when Chosen and DoK HD debuffs stacked it was deemed to powerfull but not when WP and Kotbs can basicly do the same thing.

I would really keep an close eye on this. I know we're not allowed to come with imput on anything ballance related lower then 6mans. But what happens if duos start to be competative against the 6 mans?
And why aren't you concerned about BG + dps DoK combo? With tactic BG has a 50% outgoing heal debuff, while the DoK can spam aoe 50% incoming heal debuffs (whenever it crits with Essence Lash, for instance). It's more powerful than the kotbs + WP combo that you mention.
No it's not. In a scenario with 2 healers vs 2 healers or a 6v6, and the aura hits both the healers and inc healdebuff on 1 of the healers it will be the same as having one healer with 50% inc + - 50% out healdebuff and you're attacking the healer. But in a standard 12v12 scenario and both groups have 2 healers the Kotbs+WP debuffs will be stronger. This makes the Kotbs+WP stronger potential. You're missing that the Kotbs Aura is a static AoE that have the potential to debuff ALL outgoin heals. Not just one healer.

And it's not like WP can't do the same thing with a IB.
The aura is only 30 ft radius and quite easy to avoid having effect all healers. If you healers stack on one spot and don't move, that's the price you pay. And the difference between the IB + WP combo and the BG + DoK combo is, as mentioned, the DoK's ability to provide it's heal debuff to multiple targets - somewhat like the knight (except the knight's debuff is less effective). Something the WP can't. Hence making it the more powerful combo.
APONYMOUS l WP l R40 l RR7X
BRAKEDOWN l KOTBS l R40 l RR7X
CHOKING l BW l R40 l RR7X
PUFFED l SLY l R40 l RR8X
RHYTHM l AM l R40 l RR7X
EEWULL l DOK l R3X l RR4X

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2721

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#174 » Wed May 31, 2017 5:54 pm

Spreading out a 5 sec Inc HD when people doing small scale single target dmg compared to having a static 20-25% reduction in overall healing when doing single target dmg is not even compareible tbh.

30 feet is not an issue at all on a tank with 200% uptime on a AoE snare.

The Inc AoE HD from DoK is ok when doing large scale bombing. But RP and Zealot can do excatly the same thing and RP being in general the best at it due to Order having alot more crit potential and Rune of Battle, that triggers it like crazy.

Also the fact that both WP and AM got acess to a healdebuff in healing build with 90-100% uptime is a ballance issue if you ask me tbh.

And then WP is stuck with basicly no AoE dps utillity build while DoK are able to is another issue simular to the one of WL and Marauder.

To me it seems like ballancing in general arn't very focused. Trying to fix one thing breaks another. This is why i think this game needs class conceptionalists rather then overall single issues ballance fixes. And then two knowlegeble ballance game masters who reasearch the possible consequence of a skill change. One for large scale and one for small scale. Coz it's really tricky to try and ballance both at the same time. (impossible imo)
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Hroft
Posts: 13

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#175 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:11 pm

Order
RP>zealot,Kotbs>CH,AM>Shaman,WL>Mara,Eng>magus,BW>sorc,SM>BO,Slayer>Choppa, WP>Dok.
Destruction
SH>SW,WE>hat,BG arguably>IB
Thats the balance summed up.

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GodlessCrom
Suspended
Posts: 1297

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#176 » Wed May 31, 2017 6:58 pm

Hroft wrote:Order
RP>zealot,Kotbs>CH,AM>Shaman,WL>Mara,Eng>magus,BW>sorc,SM>BO,Slayer>Choppa, WP>Dok.
Destruction
SH>SW,WE>hat,BG arguably>IB
Thats the balance summed up.
No idea why Destro players have this massive inferiority complex going on, but god damn you guys sure like to act hard done by. I will give you Slayer>Choppa, and KOTBS>Chosen (though Chosen is still extremely good, KOTBS is admittedly lolzy), but come on, Marauder is the best melee dps in the game with its debuffs, survivability, and burst. Not quite as much burst or mobility as WL, but it makes up for it. They are at least equal in terms of balance IMO. Same with SM and BO: Sm has WW, (and the M2 pounce which is nice) and does more damage/takes less in 2h, but BO has aoe snare, morale pump, and also does excellent assist damage. Both are solid tanks and again, I'd say they're pretty close to equal. Same with BG and IB IMO, with the recent buffs to BG. I'd still lean towards IB being better, but I haven't played BG much at all so can't comment. I see more BGs than I do IB, but that's probably the "oooo shiny" due to the recent patch changes more than anything else.

Healers I know little about, but I'm pretty sure AM and Shaman are fairly close and if anything, the balance is weighted towards Shamans. Certainly they're more annoying than AM in small-scale. RP/zealot and WP/DOK I admit I know basically nothing about, so others can weigh in.

And BW may be better than Sorc but come on, both classes have like five buttons and are by far the easiest thing to play in the game. 100.1 is larger than 100, but the difference is negligible at best.

Honestly, considering the amount of variables involved in balance here, the sides are remarkably well-balanced IMO. Certainly moreso than live. Most of the complaints come down to L2P issues and the inveterate whininess of MMO players everywhere. Not that there aren't issues, but when you have people (Order and Destro alike) so invested in the narrative of "we're the scrappy, skillful underdog, and [insert enemy side here] is the skilless OP zerg!" it becomes fruitless actually getting them to discuss issues logically when they already have become invested in conclusions they reached emotionally.
Rush in and die, dogs - I was a man before I was a king!

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wargrimnir
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine

Post#177 » Wed May 31, 2017 7:06 pm

This conversation is way outside the scope of Dok/WP changes. Considering these changes were made months ago, and we're not currently entertaining changes, this topic is being locked until we revisit the classes.
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