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[Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

After feedback has reached it's viable limit, it will retire here to keep the main section clean and tidy.
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Gerv
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[Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#1 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:53 am

Test Phase Changes - These can be removed or changed without warning at any time.

- Blackguard - General

- Shield of Rage will now also be placed upon your Dark Protector if they are within 50ft.


- Blackguard - Path of Malice.

- Removed Blade of Ruin
- Added ability Get Down! to 9 points path of malice
- Moved enraged beating to 5 points.


- Blackguard - Path of Loathing

- Force of Fury moved to 13 points.
- Force of Fury will now also be placed upon your Dark Protector if they are within 50ft.
- Terrifying Foe moved to 7 points.
- None Shall Pass moved back to 5 points.
- Anger Drives Me moved to 3 points.
Amendment - Changed FoF to work as a percentage value instead of being a static value. If you have 50% chance to be critically hit you will, after a 45% reduction from Force of Fury, then have a 27.5% chance to be critically hit as opposed to 5%.

- Blackguard - Path of Anguish

- Elite Training now offers both Parry and Disrupt, it will still defend against only 4 attacks, however they can be they parried OR disrupted and any variation of.
- Elite Training will now also be placed upon your Dark Protector if they are within 50ft.

Notes -

- Get Down! ability is locked to 2 hander and will not work with a S&B though will not grey out.
- Get Down! cooldown says 10s in tooltip, its set to 20s.
- The 'knock down' of Get Down! doesnt animate and place you on the floor, you are disabled with abilities greyed out but other work is needed to make the character lie down.
- Some abilities will 'red out' and state you are to low to use them but they will work just fine when you can get and use them. These will disappear when you reach certain levels.

FEEDBACK will be collected over 2 weeks, if there is a blaring issue we will act, otherwise at the end of 2 weeks we will review and make adjustments.

PLEASE Ignore knee jerk reactions to the changes, we are seeking constructive feed-back generated from group situations. Please, respond to the questions posted and keep the "Other comments" to a minimum. This thread will be heavily moderated.

Malice tree:
1) What is the impact to overall damage dealt by the BG class using the 2hd spec with the removal of Blade of Ruin and the addition of an AoE damaging ability? (Yes Single target damage will be reduced).
2) What impact does the AoE component of damage have on triggering the tactic Hastened Doom on multiple players, do you see it occur more often as a result?
3) How does the cooldown timer of 20 seconds fit in with the rotation of the BG?

Loathing:
1) With None Shall pass moved to the bottom, how is the generation of hate for BG specs of loathing and Anguish?
2) None shall pass should be generating 10 Hate (client side) not 5 as per the tooltip, what return on hate are you seeing?
3) How has the survivability of the Black Guard and it's Dark Protector changed, with the addition of Force of Fury and Elite Training additions?
4) Do the additions to Dark Protector increase the survivability beyond what is required in a group setting, if you believe so, why?

Other comments
Sia - DoK - Lords
Boyd - WP - O.S.

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Telperien
Posts: 550

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#2 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:28 am

I`m not sure is it the right place but Ill to know how the new changes inflance lifetap heals of AM class, epecially if target got absorb of BG, disrupt of BG and - to be crit of BG.
Thank you for any information.
Slacking (checking out EvE)

Niky
Posts: 207

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#3 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:49 am

Wash looks too OP ... 2+3 and i am immortal xD?
Destro: Mara Nyky / DOK Crystof
Order: SL Niky / BW Nykky / SW Nyky / WL Nikky / SM Ulee
Live: WP Eprst

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1896

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#4 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:25 am

Okay lets think of potential "new specs"

Crimson Death + Force of Fury, you would need rr60, maybe get KD when you ding 70... very hard to get, not sure we have many BGs with that high renown.

FoF, Wave of Scorn from mid, Hastened Doom, KD and FilledwithFury from left; available at rr70... very hard to obtain, and you lose CD which is maybe best 2h ability

or...you drop Hastened Doom to get some other goodies like Parry from mid and toughness tactic, you can still wave around with your 2h but your dmg will be limited due to losing weapon speed tactic and wounds debuff, sounds a bit bad

or, we ignore mid tree because FoF is now too high to obtain and think of left-right spec
CD-2 tactics, KD from left tree... and what from right tree is the question; I have never truly understood the right tree "Anti Magic", which is IMO a bit "bad" in general.
Why:
-Most tanks aren't worth detaunting, damage is usually terribad, and even with your best loldps mode, you probably won't want that tactic when better ones exist
-Choking Fury, would be decent skill in some rotations, however not alone good enough to make a BG consider speccing right tree; also most enemy healers are not blind, they see Hexes that need cleansing
-Soul Killer whilst there is something wicked about triple-stacking outgoing healdebuff, a class like WE can do same with their Kiss and doesnt need to get a tactic for it. Other classes have easier access to outgoing healdebuffs, which are very much useful only when facing healers, very often not worth wasting a tactic slot
-Elite Training, previously an ability you would just stare at and wonder "why?", now it might find some weird niche of boosting allies Parry (and disrupt now - Torque) for next few seconds? (an ability that requires the enemy to hit you, before you can help your party, requires an enemy that is silly enough to focus the BG instead of softer targets...)
-Shielding Anger, good, if you have enough points to go up in that weird tree that otherwise provides a bit weird options

From my initial understanding, Path of Malice received slight buff, a KD without SnB is just what BG needed, so thank you for that.
However what I fail to understand is the more or less "nerfing" of midtree. FoF is now very hard to obtain, and now that NoneShallPass is lower, its still wasted if you go 2h. Anger Drives me at 3points is kinda welcome, but gaining a potentially class defining buff to FoF and then watching the same ability vanish into the upper atmosphere kinda hurts the class.

I will test this out further, but losing FoF from your standard 2h spec does hurt.

edit: figured another possible spec: Left CD-2 tactics, KD, EnragedBeating, mid only parry down below, right tree Choking Fury (though needs rr60, cant afford that in a long while lel) easiest would be to drop things like KD and Enraged Beating (no AA when channel), so that one can afford it at 40.
or for some weird spec, Malice with all the goodies, but 2 lowest tactics from mid tree, parry and "toughness buff"
best spec that I can see would be Malice with all the fun stuff, then mid tree with Parry tactic and AoE snare, which however requires r70, so meh (try counting how many rr70 BGs we got...zero)

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Marsares
Posts: 364

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#5 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:27 pm

Well, this certainly could open up some new specs for SnB and it may even given BG a role as a main tank, as on paper it appears it may open up a different survivability option with None Shall Pass moving down, although we'll in this spec lose out on Shielding Anger so I'll have less disrupt (which may be made up by cycling FoF and HtL when under pressure).

RoR.builders - Black Guard

Haven't decided on the fourth tactic yet, but basically the role is to stick to your guarded target and buff his/her survivability through Shield of Anger, Elite Training and Force of Fury which now all also apply to your Dark Protector.

At the same time you debuff his/her targets through Furious Howl, Crush the Weak, Pitiless Strike, Shatter Enchantment, etc, whilst you apply CC in the form of Crippling Anger and Spiteful Slam whilst peeling of tanks from their guarded targets with Exile.

All that whilst you also provide some group utility in the shape of Wave of Scorn and AP Regen through Elite Training. On Elite Training, does the group regain AP every time the BG and their DP block/parry, or only when the BG does so? If it's the first, then you could get 4x2 AP regen procs on this ability theoretically (120 AP for each group member). EDIT: confirmed it's 4 for BG and 4 for DP, so potentially up to 8 procs.

With the above it may be worth using a BG as a main tank, guarding a MDPS and buffing their survivability through the Dark Protector and associated abilities, whilst a Chosen sticks with a RDPS.
Karak-Norn /// Asildur - RR100 WL /// Marsares - RR95 AM /// Nirnaeth - RR64 SW

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Marsares
Posts: 364

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#6 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:15 pm

Just had some thoughts on FoF:

1) as armour pots and armour buffs don't stack, this part of the ability is a bit useless. Can it be changed for toughness or something else (obviously not the same value then!), or otherwise for a 13pt ability it may be a bit meh.
2) how does -45% to be crit work. If you have 10% chance to be crit, does it become -35% and thus an enemy needs to have 35% chance before they can crit you? Again, this is quite critical to determine if a 13pt ability is worth it, even more so as the armour element isn't hat attractive in the current state.
Karak-Norn /// Asildur - RR100 WL /// Marsares - RR95 AM /// Nirnaeth - RR64 SW


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kirraha
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Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#8 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:18 pm

I really do not like it. I lost my whole specc in masterytree, so far I do not like it but hey. Maybe it can help other manage this class lol

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boog
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Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#9 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:20 pm

I personally am a fan of the changes. I think it really gives BG some excellent utility and creative build styles that it was lacking before. I read people were concerned the FoF crit reduction being an issue because of its value.

In live the % of crit reduction FoF scaled with the BGs standard chance to be crit so if a BG had a 100% chance to be crit, 45% FoF would make it so that BG only had a 55% chance to be crit. Adversely if the BG had a 1% chance to be crit, 45% FoF would make it so that BG had a 0.55% chance to be crit. From what I understand from Luth's post is that the FoF crit reduction works as a flat crit % reduction, meaning 45% crit reduction means 45% crit reduction. That being the case, it could cause some valid balance concerns. Perhaps readjusting the values for FoF crit reduction would work better given the current state of the game. Perhaps something along the lines of

30 Hate: 4% to 5% Crit Reduction
60 Hate: 8% to 10% Crit Reduction
90 Hate: 12% to 15% Crit Reduction

Assuming of course FoF does show to cause issues.

Besides that I think the new changes to the Mastery Trees, FoF and Bubble applying to DP are excellent! It really breathed some life into the class in a way that made it feel like I could contribute to the group and allows for Mastery builds to be what I feel are on the level of versatility that you can get with the other tanks classes.

Great job! Very pleased with the new changes!
CHSN Wafulz | KBOB Wafuls | IB Waffulz | BG Waffelz | BO Waaaghfulz | SM Waffels

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zumos2
Posts: 431

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#10 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:02 pm

Torquemadra wrote:Changed FoF to work as a percentage value instead of being a static value. If you have 50% chance to be critically hit you will after a 45% reduction from Force of Fury then have a 27.5% chance to be critically hit as opposed to 5%.
Does it also take into account enemy crit chance buffs like kobs aura or BW mechanic. So let's say I have 15% chance to be crit and a BW with 0 base crit chance gets 35% from his mechanic. The BW does an attack, am I then that 27.5% chance to be critically hit?
Zumos - Member of Red Guard

Current Guilds: The Unlikely Plan - Deep and Dry - Dark Omen

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