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[Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

After feedback has reached it's viable limit, it will retire here to keep the main section clean and tidy.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2721

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#31 » Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:37 pm

Spoiler:
zumos2 wrote:
roadkillrobin wrote:Stating to nerf the other tanks to make room amother one internaly is really really bad for the extrnal ballance of the game. Then you have to do a complete overview of every single class in the game tbh. And at that point you might aswell just redo them all from scratch.

It would be much smoother to do a intrenal realm trade of abillties or tactics then.
For example: Monstrous Ruin moved to a core tactic. Filled with Fury moved to 3 pts into Malice. Hastened Doom moved to 7pts. Chosen trade Crippling Strikes with Crush Vitallity from BG. Criplling Strikes moved to 11 pts in Malice, Crush Vitallity changed to on crit proc and reduce AA haste by 40% instead of 20%, wich it's the averege of the following order tactics, Hastned Divinity, Pack Hunting, Push for More. And then placed into 7 pts in Path of Dread for Chosen
There is two things you need to balance: tanks (and dps/healers) internally and realm vs realm externally. So yes you should slightly nerf BO/Chosen if they are too strong and slightly buff BG to get them on one line and in balance to order.
I still think a trade is in much better then nerfing anything. It's essentially doing both a nerf and buff at the same time but doesn't affect the externall ballance very much while straight up nerfing the effect or something like CS and buffing the effect of Hastened Doom for example might have to much impact on how much dmg the other realm is dishing out.

Not relevant, stay on topic - Torque
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anarchypark
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Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#32 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 3:19 am

Loathing:
1) With None Shall pass moved to the bottom, how is the generation of hate for BG specs of loathing and Anguish?
- DP is hate generator. not sure NSP works as it. you end up high-hate/low-AP.

2) None shall pass should be generating 10 Hate (client side) not 5 as per the tooltip, what return on hate are you seeing?
- NSP generate 10 hate. I think 5 from normal mechanic + 5 from NSP skill.

3) How has the survivability of the Black Guard and it's Dark Protector changed, with the addition of Force of Fury and Elite Training additions?
- it's buffed up.
Elite Training can be used as magic immune. u saw BW dot? disrupt rest of rotation.
gives you time to reaction. avoiding burst. 4 avoidance is huge for glass cannon.
it's little tricky putting it on DP at right moment but you never fail when DP is half hp.
its AP regen for grp also got doubled.
and FoF...
max Futile Strike is -24% crit. it requires 45 rp. other def tanks max crit reduction is 35+- .
and 940 armor. you buff anyone for 10sec.
BG alos have Crush the Weak.

4) Do the additions to Dark Protector increase the survivability beyond what is required in a group setting, if you believe so, why?
- guard + FoF + ET + detaunt. plus other minor(?) loathing buffs. long punt or 2g focus were only answer.
this combo is almost tank M4 for DP. in 30sec CD
best moment is giving a few second for healer to heal from 20% hp.
currently it feels like 30% chance i success this combo. it will go up with more practice.

other comments
- I like body guard concept. but there is zero downside. ( unlike Malekith's Bulwark )
maybe torn down it's values further. max 30% crit reduction and 3 ET max?
or ET 100% dmg transfer to BG?
- Feeding on Pain, best usage might be using with NSP. such tactic should be placed in 4pt.
2h need parry tactic, Terryfing Foe to top?
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Lektroluv
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Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#33 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:35 pm

Very positive changes

Malice tree:
1) What is the impact to overall damage dealt by the BG class using the 2hd spec with the removal of Blade of Ruin and the addition of an AoE damaging ability? (Yes Single target damage will be reduced).
I tried maybe 7 or 8 times blade of ruin builds in my spec and always found the ability requesting parry for triger and needing spend hate on it a very bad trade in exchange for the very low DoT damage amount it was doing and the posibility of beign defended too, totally unworth a point... even tried it in PVE farming mobs, it was not worth it either in PVE.

The change for an area damage ability knockdown, is a totally positive change and the damage is not high enough for cause any imbalance either, most of the times all people surrounding your target is inmune or the player parry the attack.

I think all this changes made the path quite balanced, withouth problems in make it overpowered



2) What impact does the AoE component of damage have on triggering the tactic Hastened Doom on multiple players, do you see it occur more often as a result?
While Blackguard area damage abilities could proc a wounds debuff in multiple players, still require a critical hit and a tactic slot...
I can't see any imbalance here either, when KoTBS it is a class which does a granted area wounds debuff attack with 2hand weapon and not even needing a critical hits or a tactic slot for debuff people.
Definitively, this is not a problem in my vision, since order has a more reliable versión of area wounds debuff attack in theyr best group tank.


3) How does the cooldown timer of 20 seconds fit in with the rotation of the BG?
I think 20 seconds it is OK, because in my mind it is a situational ability for knockdown a player. Not using it in any rotations

Loathing:
1) With None Shall pass moved to the bottom, how is the generation of hate for BG specs of loathing and Anguish?
Was not able to test this part, testing the 2hand path changes first

2) None shall pass should be generating 10 Hate (client side) not 5 as per the tooltip, what return on hate are you seeing?
Didn't knew the hate generation was changed, i will check in next days

3) How has the survivability of the Black Guard and it's Dark Protector changed, with the addition of Force of Fury and Elite Training additions?
Force of fury and elite trainning were never been two of my prefered abilities, but i seen a very nice impact in game with dark protector changes making the shield of rage afect the dark protected person.
Before changes i didn't worry much about the dark protected person, right now i make sure the person reciving hits gets dark protector too for share the absorv shield bubble (now i see the shield of rage ability basic in any blackguard ability rotations, for mitigate some damage)


4) Do the additions to Dark Protector increase the survivability beyond what is required in a group setting, if you believe so, why?
I think not, as i said didn't test all the abilities much...The one i tested more was sharing shield of rage with other player, because it gave me posibilities of help people receiving attacks each 10 seconds, even when the person is out of group and can't use the guard on him.
I supouse Elite Trainning and Force of Fury could help the person beign attacked too, but since theyr cooldown timer is 2 or 3 times longer than shield of rage, made me prefer shield of rage introduction in rotation over Elite Trainning and Force of fury.



In general, i see them as positive changes, and i don't consider them as game changing
The change in toughness tactic and parry one in central path, doesn't change my play style because i see the area snare ability like a must have one and it is further in that path anyway, maybe for other players this particular change is nice or not, but for me, doesn't change the build in this tactics.

The class is more viable in group, now has tools for have more impact withouth breaking the game

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#34 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:28 pm

Gerv wrote:Loathing:
1) With None Shall pass moved to the bottom, how is the generation of hate for BG specs of loathing and Anguish?
2) None shall pass should be generating 10 Hate (client side) not 5 as per the tooltip, what return on hate are you seeing?
3) How has the survivability of the Black Guard and it's Dark Protector changed, with the addition of Force of Fury and Elite Training additions?
4) Do the additions to Dark Protector increase the survivability beyond what is required in a group setting, if you believe so, why?
The 2H stuff I have yet to try, Ive been messing with SnB so ill comment on what I have tested.

1) NSP - Never had hate gen problems on SnB because SnB has very few hate spenders... Toughness debuff being a spender is moot due to Chosen aura (that most run) and it not stacking. So this for survival is good however putting FOF up at top tier makes this and Bolstering Anger mutually exclusive. As well as Elite Training (largely due to tactics and other abilities like AoE snare being needed). "Return on Hate" I dont worry about frankly since I dont use NSP to generate hate, its not needed, its used to increase block 50% as an "oh ****" button. The issue I have with NSP as hate generation, is its mutually exclusive with the other buffs/benefits you can provide.

If you want to buff toughness, lets say, you hop in and drop some hateful strike (for the proc) as well as Feeding on Weakness. By the time those are in play + a snare its been several seconds of combat and likely your sitting at a healthy "hate" amount. So IDk, this seemed like a moot point for hate purposes for me, in MOST cases... More about getting 50% block than anything else for survival.

3) Survival of the BG has decreased due to FOF being so high (overall) As to survival of the DP, its obviously increased. It feels "OP" in PVE due to 4 parry attacks being VERY Good + the Shield. In PVP however Elite Training is often not taken in 2H specs OR SnB (that I have played) because its exclusive to FOF which is a much better ability... I will also note, I didnt see disrupt included in Elite Training. I saw Parry increase to 100% but not Disrupt.... Maybe that was removed? IDK. (its merely not shown on the tooltip buffline, target self, type .getstats and you will see it grants 800% parry and 800% disrupt, no strikethrough on that. Buffline will be a client tweak - Torque)

4) I think survival of DP is fine in group settings. The addition of Shield of Rage applying to the DP combined with FOF are big improvements. For 6 man groups, its just fine. In RVR however, the benefits are too limiting to just the DP. 2H used to be deemed "viable" because of its tankiness with FOF, but not you cant really go FOF + 2H... So 2H specs are less tanky, which is what offered the crit benefits....

Overall these changes were a much needed "buff" but now I fear BGs almost over-excel in small group settings where they still are lack luster in RVR settings. Mainly due to the selfish nature of the BG and his benefits. I think they were overall GOOD changes however....

OTHER THOUGHTS:
- I cant help but feel like NSP should grant 50% parry/dodge/disrupt instead of block. You could bump this back down to 5 hate per attack defended or even NONE. This would mirror WODS and give 2H specs viability here both as a defensive tool + maybe a hate generator that is defensive. This wouldnt really change SNB availability at all and make up for loss of FOF for 2H specs.

- I also wonder if Elite Training and Choking Fury were swapped, what that would do... Since you COULD get FOF + ET then which would be a more SnB tank+utility spec for DP. This might also open up (potentially) some 2H specs going Anguish, however Loathing offering Terrifying Foe + Anger Drives me, is just too good to pass up... Which, what you could do if you offered NSP as 50% parry/dodge/disrupt could be to move Terrifying Foe up to tier 3 and drop Feeding on Pain to T2... NSP would "make up" for the toughness + FOF loss, but you might see some tri-spec where people take Anger Drives Me + go into Anguish for Elite Training. It allows for many "build options". Or maybe they go E.T. and take outgoing heal debuff and forget Loathing, etc. etc.
Having E.T. at tier 2 limits too many build options so the change to E.T. was kinda "meh" for the DP bonus.

- Wave of Scorn is kinda "meh" at this point. High AP cost + long CD. Same with IB but they get Rune Etched Axe (tactic) that allows to "spam" AOE Snare. I feel like Wave of Scorn should have its AP reduced to maybe 45, and have its CD reduced to 10 sec. (Same with EarthShatter - which already costs 25 AP but should have 10 sec CD) to make AoE Snare more viable to use...

- Pitless Strike seems next to "worthless" IMO. Considering its hate cost + redundancy with Chosen+Mara. This ability seems almost never used.... So this seems like an area that could be improved. Potentially modified to lower the targets Weapon Skill (Counter the IB's WS buff) or something else that is non-redundant. Drop the Hate Cost to 15. Could also grant your DP AP if "within 50 feet".

My fear with the BG is this.

He is a good "selfish" tank that has moderate damage and high tankiness. His downside is party utility - which is what makes him suck in RVR (generally). Buffing the DP buffs, make him better in smaller parties but still lack luster in Warbands due to lack of party-wide benefits.

Being brutally frank. If you want BGs to be seen in warbands, you would make Feeding on Weakness a party wide benefit as well as Brutal Smash - party wide. Which would minimally provide STR/Toughness/Willpower to the party via benefits - largely overlap with the Chosen however requires a target to hit + limited buff + no debuff of those things.

This would atleast make them a viable "alternative" to a Chosen without the morale pump however with better DP benefits (like FOF + maybe ET).

Ill shutup now as I feel like I am just rambling.

Overall, I like the changes I just feel like the changes made BG better for small group play and left them about he same for warbands... Which, maybe thats just OK for now....
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

Foltestik
Posts: 493

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#35 » Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:38 am

this changes are nice but not help to much to put BG in partys
- 2 hand loldps selfish build is nice
as support:
- you have KD - nice
- but you cant have aoe snare and heal debuff like IB can
- crit reduce chance buff is crapy (even if your DP have 10% chance you buff him 5% its to low , and most dps try to have 0%)
- parry/ disrupt buff is nice but is to high to spec it properly with first tree

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#36 » Tue May 02, 2017 7:17 pm

Cant help but feel like Hastened Doom should be swapped around:
- Whenever you crit, your AA speed is increased for 10 seconds. Murder Wrath and Pitless Strike will reduce wounds by 120 for 10 seconds....

Right now tactic feels worthless because wounds debuff is shadowed by Chosen or Mara wounds which are better due to being able to use at beginning of fights. rework would allow BG to toughness debuff AND wounds debuff at beginning of fight in 1 hit (but loses AoE potential). AA haste is nice and would mimic Khaine's Blessing (DOK) but since its T3 (vs DOK T2) is where it adds the Wounds debuff to MW and PS.

doesnt really address the chosen redundancy (which I dont think can be done until Chosen/Knight change).

Currently that tactic is just so "meh"... primarily due to wounds debuff on crit..... cant be reliably procced at beginning of fights..
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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Gerv
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Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#37 » Thu May 04, 2017 12:33 am

Thanks for all the feedback everyone, we are now in a process of reviewing the feedback and tweaking the changes made. Be rest assured there are changes coming to the BO and CH in the next balance cycle so please take the changes made to the Black Guard with that in mind.

- Gerv
Sia - DoK - Lords
Boyd - WP - O.S.

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DokB
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Posts: 494

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#38 » Thu May 04, 2017 2:47 am

Gerv wrote:Thanks for all the feedback everyone, we are now in a process of reviewing the feedback and tweaking the changes made. Be rest assured there are changes coming to the BO and CH in the next balance cycle so please take the changes made to the Black Guard with that in mind.

- Gerv
Interesting to hear about BO/Chosen changes in the works, I guess it was always inevitable that they would need to be tweaked so the BG isn't so redundant in group compositions.
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tazdingo
Posts: 619

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#39 » Fri May 05, 2017 12:04 am

is discussion still open? i've played nothing but snb bg since the changes

1) With None Shall pass moved to the bottom, how is the generation of hate for BG specs of loathing and Anguish?

hate gen was always fine for loathing/anguish and i don't see the point in nsp. the CD is too long for it to be used strategically and in heroic last stand flag def situations the slayer is just gonna hit you in the back

2) None shall pass should be generating 10 Hate (client side) not 5 as per the tooltip, what return on hate are you seeing?
10 in total

3) How has the survivability of the Black Guard and it's Dark Protector changed, with the addition of Force of Fury and Elite Training additions?
it's pretty great. FoF changes are well worth being able to apply to DP. i'd still call it a must have, even at 13pts with a completely useless armour buff, it's overtaken soul killer as the "thing to do" as bg for me. the CD is huge though. i'd be happy to see the armour buff gone, duration reduced to 5 and CD to 10

elite training is fine. a little stopgap but with a painful CD. it's a nice addition but far from game changing and nothing in comparison to FoF


4) Do the additions to Dark Protector increase the survivability beyond what is required in a group setting, if you believe so, why?

no. FoF is really good but too clunky to be game changing. shield of range and elite training are nice tools but just that. i dont think the changes make BG that much better, BUT they do make it a lot more fun to play. which is more important

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Marsares
Posts: 364

Re: 22/4/2017 Black Guard class change Feedback

Post#40 » Sat May 13, 2017 12:29 pm

I won't respond to the questions as stated as abilities have been moved around once again and thus those questions are no longer representative. I've also posted this message in the last patch notes thread, but felt it would be beneficial to capture them here as clearly balancing of the BG remains an ongoing activity.

---

I'm confused about the BG changes, there still is no reason to take a BG over a Chosen or BO in a WB.

- Force of Fury and None Shall Pass got swapped
- Force of Fury got massively nerfed to the point that it's hardly worthwhile
- None Shall Pass got buffed to make it a good ability
- Force of Fury and None Shall Pass got swapped again

I fail the see the logic in this as it addresses none of the core issues that prevents a BG from getting a spot in a WB: group utility.

None Shall Pass is now a good ability, but it helps with the survivability of the BG - something that a BG never had issues with anyways. Force of Fury now also applies to the Dark Protector but as the armour element of the buff doesn't stack with armour pots and as it's now a percentage based reduction, it doesn't do a lot.

Other than that, the bubble and the parry ability apply to the Dark Protector as well but the bubble blows up instantly in WB fights and the parry proc gets eaten up by AA's alone in a WB (although it gives AP to the party, which is nice).

The BG still severely lacks any meaningful group utility, and would benefit from additional abilities that buff his/her Dark Protector:

- Make Bolstering Anger also apply to its Dark Protector
- Replace the armour element of Force of Fury with something that isn't redundant given the prevalence of armour pots and bump the critical reduction somewhat
- Remove the damage component of None Shall Pass as 126 is hardly noticeable, and turn it into a group wide stat-buff (somewhat similar to the Nature's Blade of a SM)
- Give it a PBAOE morale stripping morale - this would be its main unique selling point for a WB as Chosen/BO doesn't have it and Destro by and large doesn't have it.

Also, please review Monstrous Ruin and Blade of Ruin as they remain underwhelming for a DPS spec.
Karak-Norn /// Asildur - RR100 WL /// Marsares - RR95 AM /// Nirnaeth - RR64 SW

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