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[Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

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GodlessCrom
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#51 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 3:14 pm

The TLDR is: BG/IB should have their armor debuff SEVERITY swapped with WL and Mara...


Right now Mara/WL "base" armor debuff is 1000.
IB/BG is 800 base at MAX... This should be swapped to:

800 base on Mara/WL and
250/500/750/1000 BASE for BG and IB.

This will mean that BG and IB bring something VERY special to the table in terms of being part of a melee train - that would give them a valid spot even in a Chosen/Mara group!

This really isnt that much of a change, but I think its enough to where a BG would be a sought after class (IMO). It also VERY mildly nerfs WL/Mara (which would be a very positive change).
I like this. Though, I believe the difference in values between the debuffs is already fairly small, and I'm not certain it will actually make people take a BG/Ib in their groups if they don't already do so. Still, would be a nice QoL change.
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th3gatekeeper
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#52 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 4:12 pm

GodlessCrom wrote:
The TLDR is: BG/IB should have their armor debuff SEVERITY swapped with WL and Mara...


Right now Mara/WL "base" armor debuff is 1000.
IB/BG is 800 base at MAX... This should be swapped to:

800 base on Mara/WL and
250/500/750/1000 BASE for BG and IB.

This will mean that BG and IB bring something VERY special to the table in terms of being part of a melee train - that would give them a valid spot even in a Chosen/Mara group!

This really isnt that much of a change, but I think its enough to where a BG would be a sought after class (IMO). It also VERY mildly nerfs WL/Mara (which would be a very positive change).
I like this. Though, I believe the difference in values between the debuffs is already fairly small, and I'm not certain it will actually make people take a BG/Ib in their groups if they don't already do so. Still, would be a nice QoL change.
I wouldnt be so sure about that... In an armor meta (like we have right now) armor and armor debuffs are VERY powerful. Right now I feel BG teeters on the edge of being useful... Its DP benefits + some added utility things make it not completely worthless, just redundant... I think swapping the armor debuffs, would give it a little "umph" needed to make people think twice about bringing (or not bringing) a BG.

This, in conjunction with my post on the last page - regarding things like moving AoE snare to Tier 1 ability and lessening the cost, making FOF stronger, and a few other small adjustments like Elite Training... Now you have a pretty nice tank to bring to the group! Both SnB and 2H have viable roles in a group. It would become a "model class" in which other tanks can be based on where both SNB and 2H are viable and bring great tools to a party...
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#53 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:37 pm

Torquemadra wrote:
Aleteh wrote:
Torquemadra wrote:
somethingsomething
I agree, but with this change it has increased the number of useless things in loathing. The AP cost reduction has never seen any use since the release of the class.

Increase the CD to 30 or 40 seconds to lower the uptime, or decrease the crit reduction to like 10-15-20-25% but keep it as a flat amount.
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#54 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:40 pm

Whatever the decision is around FoF, as it currently stands it's near useless. The purpose of class balancing surely can't be to introduce abilities that nobody chooses to use as they are sub-par?
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#55 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:54 pm

Torquemadra wrote: Such is life, every class doesnt and shouldnt get uber abilities at 5 and a 45% static reduction is completely and utterly broken as is essentially immunity from crits for a 50% uptime. Static reduction isnt on the cards, its a tank ability that gets better the more you spec as a tank.
Torq,

I completely agree. BGs shouldnt get an uber ability at 5 and making it 45% static is OP... I guess 1 thing I dont know is it only your chance to be crit, or does it somehow impact your opponants crit chance as well? I was under the impression it would look at YOUR base chance to be crit (usually around 16-20%) and then reduces that number by 45% (max) which would mean its a 7-9% crit reduction... Or does it ALSO add an opponents crit chance (which could be 20%+)? Because then that makes multiplicative 2x as good and then IS good as multiplicative... If its only your own chance to be crit, the 45% is good, not GREAT and the armor bonus is mediocre at best. So it CURRENTLY warrants a 5 point spot - as its lack luster IMO (which is fine for 5 points).

Did you take a peak at my feedback on the previous page? The re-order of the abilities in Path of Loathing?

This would make FOF the capstone - which then restricts it to BGs that go full Loathing, which could then justify a stronger FOF...

Also I think Elite Training is another great ability that could be modified a tad (reasons on previous page) but if Elite Training COULD BE a substitute for Anger Drives me - in its ability to mitigate guard damage. That might open up an alternate 2H build that uses Anguish instead of Loathing.

Making FOF capstone and reworking it opens up Loathing as a viable mastery path, and then modifying Bolstering Anger a tad so its worth of capstone - well now you have ALL THREE trees that are appealing and multiple ways 2H and SnB specs can divide up the trees and you might see VERY different BGs running around all with different specs.
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#56 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:01 pm

Torquemadra wrote:
Marsares wrote:Whatever the decision is around FoF, as it currently stands it's near useless. The purpose of class balancing surely can't be to introduce abilities that nobody chooses to use as they are sub-par?
The ability is fixed to how it should work, that it is less desirable that others is why its at 5 points not 13. BG got significant loving and I see little reason, at this stage, to rework it further before client control when I have much less constraints.

make it reduces enemy chance to crit too, so it's not useless you dont need client controll for that is a server side work
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#57 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:17 pm

Spoiler:
Tesq wrote:shield of rage on DP: working fine i assume; is protecting from all type of dmg, 10 sec CD make it reliable enough; help mitigate dmg from all source also from dots, high burst, i can say good enough, is worth lower your hate as long it protect DP from all dmg; tough tend to explode immidiatly even in small scale so suffer from every day absorb problem it dosen't scale as with a %.
A solution would make it an absorb % (not a dmg reduction so ye slightly worst but it would scale at least)

elie training on DP:i've conflict regarding this; main problem is the long CD; avoiding only 4 hits mean it need to be up every 10 sec not 30 to counter burst which are done mostly every 10 sec or so. Either way 10 sec would give too many ap to the group so ye; maybe need more internal balance but a cd reduction. Is also lack luster regarding dodge as SW have a RKD when you want move back dont have elie training protecting from rkd can really hurt sometimes (not you; your dakr protector). I found it instead very good to counter wl pull or subsequentially burst. Could really save some ppl life but need dodge label, maybe 1 stack more.

FoF on DP: force of fury suffer from not reducing the enemy chance to be crit; everyone is stackig to some extent Futile strike this mean that the more you're DD is better the more the skill became badder.

it would be clear understand how FoF work btw :

-does it remove 45% of " your chance to be crit"
-does it remove "45% chance to be crit after the enemy chance to crit got addeded" so [(your + enemy ) -45%]?

this is quite the point because either as panic button or as support tool in the first way is useless ; remove 5% chance to be crit every 50% of time is very very low considering all the thing BG have to do in the meanwhile and it's a ST buff; also considering the update time for 50% (so in first case would be definetly not worth) if is working as in the second case then is alredy fine; i dont see much a difference in using it so i suppose is number one
In addition instead buff armor may be better provide an armor pen reduction since the value you have do not stack with potion (pre change recive -45% chance to be crit was alredy good enough; since there is no more a flat value but is a proportional reduction a armor pen may be taken in considariont instead an armor buff since the 2h build may use FOF but wont benefith from the armor due not going very high in the mastery and genrally NSP is not worth spending so many point so if you go mid you stop at aoe snare


The BG spec is also heavily def tactic dependand in whatever build. Especially 2h vs s+b use the same def tactics and with all probability also disrupt should have the same position as parry (so on 3 pt) or either both tactic should be made 1 and also dodge should be added)
2h left mastery is basically a SM with out wall of darting steel; a coevalent tactic fixing the avoidance from all mid and right mastery would make it more reliable. IT will also free 1 tactic spot for stuff like auto attack debuff which BG cannot slot because is paper with out parry, disrupt, and 1 toughness tactic.

2h KD: as said in kd thread you are loosing 1 mastery point and make all your builds harder since all BG skill are higer to take than a IB so again would be better have the middle KD be usable also as 2h in some way rather than spend 1 point in left wing:
This also because you have no access to 2h KD if you dont play left mastery while you can play regardless 2h even if going mid +right which is what im doing right now with the changes.

aoe snare: gona add an additional note about the snare, after the changes i basically stopped taking it. It's from a lot of time very unreliable, it have along CD for a snare duration which it will never matter (cleanse , immunity etc) and is a cone snare.
A very quality life improvement would be make it 5 sec dutation 10 sec CD at least it would be used more often.
You can cleary see what cc are good and bad from their CD. ALL cc which are on a 10 sec CD are currently on all the the class which are regarded as the best for that type of CC. Generally speaking all aoe snare in game are too good. Form of. CC which give no immunity should never have less than 20 sec of cd if the snare last 10; so either this is wrong and BG snare need to be improved or all other aoe snare need a nerf.

Crimson death
Also gona ad a second additonal note regarding crimson death; since till the change happened to his duration no feedback was given: The skill is lackluster considering it cannot be reaplied before the duration end onto other target and the cone nature of the debuff make very easy miss some one of the enemy(which can be a immidiatly assist swap)
If the debuff would had been a 360 degree a 10 duration on 10 CD would had beene ok, but as i told back long ago not be able to swap the target of the debuff more ofter is limiting the BG. Kobs is auto debuff in 30 feet at least bg should be able to keep debuff ppl if he willing to spend 1 GCD more and 30 hate.
The CD should be either remove or lower to 5 sec.

2h mastery/summary:
the changes made worst 2h while boost s+b. Due FOF change is even harder spec left wing becasue you lack the disrupt from right mastery and you only have 30% parry if you take it from mid. The kd addition was made for a st utility on a aoe /rvr mastery which make build bg harder and limiting only yor 2h utility and bind it to left mastery (less choice , less fun).
Basically nerf FoF back to live version killed the left mastery viability you are made of "paper" .

Suggestion:
-shielding anger and anger drives me should be made 1 tactic and buff also dodge (all 30% or 40/20 /20...preferable all 30; this will mirror wall of darting still in BG way, less avoidance but passive) put in middle mastery (but should not stack with hold the line and this will fix both 2h durability and s+b exesive durability), alternativly lower shielding anger to 3 pt as was done for parry so you can have anyway all avoidance in every build, that way 2h should be more reliable.
-FoF should be reworked into an armor pen reduction and/or only fix the crit reduction to also ignore 45% criti chance of enemy that is hitting you.
-shield of rage: maybe absorb a dmg % ( worst than a pure dmg reduction), basically this would be a dp buff solutin even for orvr
-elite training: could be the dp solution to small scale , need a lower cd and ap reduced accordly; probable also dodge label.
-2h kd : make mid mastery kd usable in some way by 2h (bg is wasting too many points goign up and down for fixed skill all too far from each other), and i dont mean in regard to investiment to have good stuff. There 2 build you can do on malice, one is ST assist the other is aoe debuff. Have to move into this mess of disposition and also loose another mastery point is not easy; usually the kd is on the more accessible mastery. The ib 2h spec kd shoud be an exeption not a rule, this jimp BG on 1/3 of his builds while a ch/kobs will always have that.
-aoe snare: worst aoe snare in game, other BG can confirm...... mirror it better with all other snare in game; if keep cone make it more spammy with duration = CD
-Crimson death: basically remove CD or give 5 sec (first would be better and would give some trade for put out aoe in rvr while lowering your defense as most of tank can put aoe up with out jimp them self like bg does (and they do even better dmg).
No, just no to all of this.

FoF is working as it did in live, making it a static pure 45% crit reduction to either the BG and its DP or a single target is OP, say bye-bye to BG and DP being crit ever again.

2h KD is already in the BG's main DPS tree and in the same spot as all the other tank's KDs. IB and BG have the exact same layout, freely given and usable for SnB with a proc or located in the main DPS tree and works fine as it is. You want to give BG a free 5 sec SnB KD and a free 2h KD while all other tanks have to spec for their KDs? Nope.

Making the bubble absorb a % of DMG? Why? ORvR buff only for zerg fests? So % of DMG absorbed plus the toughness and armor buff that already mitigates their DMG by a % and then if you make the changes to FoF that you wanted DRASTICALLY reduce the DP and BG's chance to be crit? That just spells disastrous balance issues.

Condense defensive tactics into 1 and give them dodge on top? So essentially BG wont have to bother with shield and can be a force to be reckoned with +2h DMG. You want all this in the middle tree with FoF and Terrifying Foe? God-mode 2h BG right there.

Elite training already works on 6 attacks and either parries or disrupts the attack. MAYBE a shorter CD but even still the 30 second timer is fine considering it lasts for 10 seconds, is effective on 6 attacks (except for SW and Engi ranged attacks), rebuilds AP (it isn't meant to be a BG AP regen ability it is meant to be a group AP regen utility).

AoE snare I agree with you, kind of useless. Would be better if it worked like IB Earthshatter. However, it is still an effective tool if used properly.

Spammable Crimson Death? Give BG a spammable devastating attack that makes people it touches 10% more likely to be crit and then put Hastened Doom on top of that and you have a spammable attack that already deals ridiculous damage that doesn't cost any AP. Hate is easy enough to build as it is on BG. 10 second CD on Crimson Death is fine as is.

BG is fine as it is now. Good group utility mixed with the ability to be turtle or DPS and work it as it goes. It does not need to be changed any further.
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#58 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:52 pm

but back down Non shall pass it will helps BG more then useless FoF, every normal melee dps try to have 0% or close chance to crit. If he has like 5% (thats nt hard) you buff him circa 2,5% hmm thats really needed :)

problem is that BG have all usefull abilities in all 3 trees. Why will you put BG on your group KD (with 2hand), aoe snare and outgoing heal debuff thats BGs advantage, but you cant have all 3. IB can thats help IBs a lot

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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#59 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:59 pm

boog wrote:
Spoiler:
Tesq wrote:SNIP
No, just no to all of this.

Elite training already works on 6 attacks and either parries or disrupts the attack. MAYBE a shorter CD but even still the 30 second timer is fine considering it lasts for 10 seconds, is effective on 6 attacks (except for SW and Engi ranged attacks), rebuilds AP (it isn't meant to be a BG AP regen ability it is meant to be a group AP regen utility).

AoE snare I agree with you, kind of useless. Would be better if it worked like IB Earthshatter. However, it is still an effective tool if used properly.

BG is fine as it is now. Good group utility mixed with the ability to be turtle or DPS and work it as it goes. It does not need to be changed any further.
I agree with your summary of Tesq's post. I respect Tesq A LOT but on this point I think he would make the BG too OP if his post was implemented.

Elite Training - in theory or PVE lasts 10 seconds... but the reality of this is that it lasts for almost no time in larger scale battles and frankly, considering its T2, I find it not worth the "cost".. A shorter CD might work (like 20 sec) or... what I think would be better is a shorter 3-4 second buff in which it increases parry/disrupt for a fixed duration. Which provides more of an "Oh Sh!t" protection for your DP in RVR. In small scale our bubble works great! In large scale, bubble sucks, so E.T. can be "The ability" for large scale. It gives you something for both types - which is why I think it should be changed... But overall a shorter CD on it would also suffice.

AoE snare is VERY lack luster, and due to cost (tier 2) its not something that I actively go for.... I do usually grab it in my SNB builds, but just always find myself being frustrated with the high AP cost. Ideally (as you said) it would work like IBs, sure. I think my proposal is also fair - make it T1, less AP, and call it a day.

I think BG is in a good spot overall, but my opinion of it... it didnt REALLY fix any of the issue for warbands.

Sure, the 2H "dps" spec is better (now with KD) and you can turtle up with SnB - but BG does not possess good tools for warbands. We can help protect 1 person via FOF (meh) E.T (meh) and Bubble (meh in large scale) - none of those scream "I need a BG in my party"...

I really think adjusting E.T. and AoE Snare as I proposed would give BG those "tools" that are unique to BG and reason to bring them along in ANY group. I further think that either increasing the severity of their armor debuff OR swapping the severity of armor debuff with Mara adds another element - at little change in any "meta play" to where BG is desired in ANY party - where as right now its really made redundant with Chosen+mara. My changes would give BG a stronger armor debuff, DP bubble, AoE snare, longer KD (SnB), 10% crit (2H), damage mitigation above guard (bubble small scale, E.T. large scale) etc... So it just needs a SMALL "umph" and none of which I think would make it OP, do you?

I think currently BG is still more of the "black sheep" of tanks for RVR, but is great in smaller scale fights.
Last edited by th3gatekeeper on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#60 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:02 pm

@boog

-my elite training work on 4 attacks as wrote on the buff/debuff ui....not 6....
-no one want FoF to give -45% (so 10% -45%=-35% -->i want your chance to be crit + enemy chance to crit :100 x65)

let's say bw have 80% crit you, you have 10 % ; this si a 90%
90% :100 x 65=0.90x65= 58.5% crit chance

if enemy have 10 and you have 10 ; total of 20% then:
20:100 x65= 13% chance to be crit

you see ; no flat -45%; skill reduce better the crit the more it get stack; since crit have a scaling efficency the more you stack is only natural an anti crit keep this in mind, this is how a proportional reduction must work .

-2h kd is not in the correct spot, all tank have it on mid mastery requried to be spec and only IB/BG require s+b KD
-Ib/BG loyaut are not the same : snare is in a different spot, the left mastery is hybrid aoe/st support+dps , IB isnt; is st
-sy but all bg i know go around with both avoidance tactic with out is a suicide, or they are deliberately going paper on purpose, if you go 2h and yes why dodge should be out? 2/3 order rdps are physic....if you use hold the line you get both dodge and disrupt.... Look at renown why do you think dodge/disrupt are togheter because parry protect vs all melee attack and there should only be 1 stuff for all ranged attack.
So ye either 30% dodge should also make his way.


30% chance vs melee and rdps attack is not that much + dont stack with hold the line (let's add renown ) for 40 points you have all 48% do you think this is broken? most of s+b tank can get higer, 2h SM is ever more cool

2h have 30/30/30
s+b will have 30/45/45 with hold the line

this is all perfectly fine and in line with SM wall of darting steel--> (active 50% vs passive 25% +5% due hate managementup/down)

- if Crimsons death dmg is a problem it can simply be adjsuted this is a trivial matter; the good part is the debuff not the dmg ; who **** cares to do aoe dmg and loose 30 hate in Orvr?--> drop hate mean drop avoidance all balance itself is all a BIG TRADE.
What i care is see BG as a workign debuff tank

Untill avodiance is not fixed for 2h ; Orvr BG will suck forever....
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