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[Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

After feedback has reached it's viable limit, it will retire here to keep the main section clean and tidy.

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Tesq
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Posts: 5346

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#71 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:55 pm

Nice someone understood finally what im saying from long time bg have skill economy/GCD problem. Look at kobs organization and interation (not broken stuff) and look at bg left mastery; that's how every bg mastery should be organized 1 tactic which is linked to multiple effects (same as kobs) and with avoidance stuff accessible in EVERY build since he is 2h based for RVR and it is the only tank for that
Spoiler:
murderous wrath + wounds debuff tactic give ya
-dmg+ armor ingore on the hit
-wounds debuff
-procable auto attack haste

hatefull strike+ toughness tactic give ya
-dmg+agro ( LOL)(if it was feeading on weakneed here we will also have a regen in place of agro and we will miss 1)
-max 45% toughness buff
-(MISS ONE, may be crush the weak must be balanced due have a passive avoidance tactic instead.......)

mind killer + soul killer tactic
-dmg +int/willpower
-out H-debuff (but replace the ini/willdebuff (so....miss one above)/ (MISS HALF)
-(MISS ONE, elite training and absorb requrie GCD so they not fit here and regardless thay are more for dark protector than you)
Spoiler:
all of this is pretty schematis is all a

-dmg+ seconday eff
-debuff
-self buff

and should be this one in all mastery
Now next step if someone gona understand the avoidance MAD and make it more accesible in 2h and don't stack with hold the line ...
Spoiler:
anger drives me --> need to give parry / dodge /disrupt (dodge /disrupt wont stack with hold the line)=

fixed
2h: 30/30/30 + renown = 48/48/48
s+b 30/ 30(45*)/30(45*) + renown = 48 / 48(63*)/ 48 (63*)

currently:
2h: 30/0/30 + renown = 48/18/48
s+b 30/0 (45%*)/30(75*) +renown = 48 / 18 (63*)/ 48(105*)

*hold the line

as you can see BG can reach alredy a 105% disrupt all by himself in s+b .... if this can be nerf and 2h avoidance buff such system will make BG more playable by fix one tactic serverside
Last edited by Tesq on Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#72 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:18 pm

Bozzax wrote:Not playing BG atm but I think a common misstake is trying to use all abilities in a mega rotation. You only have gcd issues if you use a lot of worthless abilities.

Think of it in smaller sequences with a purpose teamed with stuff that makes sense. Don't spam **** most debuffs/buffs don't win and look at the tactics. If you have one that makes you crit more when you spend hate use a hate spending ability pref every 5s so you get high uptime and always before EB.

Do try out the available hate builders and hate building tactics if you have problems keeping hate up.
Oh I completely agree. I tried to give disclosure on this.. For example though, say you are 2H. In order to get Filled with Fury BEFORE using CD - you need to spend hate 2x now. So even if you just popped Shield of Rage then CD, you spent 45 hate. Now your Punt turns into a "medium" punt. Your armor debuff is only a base of 400 now... Which is kinda pointless to use then, etc. etc.

Also, if you arent using a "mega rotation" then you are not bringing to the table all your buffs/debuffs that the other tanks (KOBS/Chosen/SM/BO) can... One of the issues I see is the BG reliance on E.B. or NSP to generate hate.. which wastes "time". So while a SM can cycle through 1 full rotation (Normal Balance -> Perfect Balance) you spent that same time doing zero group benefits, zero utility, and merely generating hate so you CAN spend another 3 GCDs, to try and bring utility (such as armor debuff, CD, FH).... Which puts you BACK in the same spot as before -> now spending 3 GCDs in E.B. generating hate cause you just dropped 60 on 2 abilities. Where as during those same GCDs, the SM is buffing/debuffing/Slowing/Bubbling himself/ AoE resist debuff etc...

Also another POINT I want to point out about your comment, is you spent hate, then spend 3 sec in EB... Like you said... Well thats 4 GCDs... and now your CD, or FH is basically "halfway done" and you no longer even have the added crit anylonger...

Point being: it would ALMOST be as if a bunch of SM abilities were all moved to perfect balance, AND rather than 1 ability moving you to the next stance it took two... So it now took you 6 abilities to get to perfect balance, which you could then use 1-2 KEY abilities and restart your "rotation build up" all over again.

I dont want to derail the thread. I am merely trying to point out the funamental flaw with BG and why it, and IB, will always be a "lower tier tank" than the other ones... Mainly because Chosen/Knight/BO/SM dont have to spend as many GCDs to SOME of their buffs/debuffs and have easier "access" to their BEST abilities.

What I think COULD be interesting... is if Hate SCALERS were seen as almost the "Improved" Stance equivalent... So rather than it scaling with hate up to a HIGH hate threshold... It would have like 3 tiers of Hate scaling... Something LIKE (to use Horrific Wound as an example):

No hate- 400 debuff
25+ hate- 600 debuff
50+ hate - 800 debuff


Because NOW you can start to build "rotations" where you use NON HATE related stuff (Normal Stance) -> Hate Scalers (Improved Stance) -> Hate Spenders (Perfect Stance)

Also I would remove the "hate generation" from E.B. as well as NSP but provide something LIKE: 10 per hit and 10 for being hit (from 5). (So a move like EB would be used more for the damage it provides than utility - as a finisher kinda like SM's E.D. but not as good).

This would provide more "dynamic" move across the hate scale. When high hate, you spend it, when medium hate, you use your scalers... When low hate, you do non hate related stuff. WITHOUT having to spend time in E.B. to "get hate"....

Its not fully fleshed out ill admit... but it would be interesting.....
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#73 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:32 pm

Torquemadra wrote:This will be said once, and once only, you will not be seeing an attrition or merging of abilities within the BG to simplify the class.
Thanks for the input Torq. With that as the case, then I think ultimately the major issue the befalls the BG is hate generation and time spent "wasted" in E.B. and NSP.

The 3 seconds spend just generating hate, all other tanks get to use those 3 GCDs on buffing/debuffing.

Would you entertain discussion around modifying hate gain/spent for the class and possibly distancing hate gain from EB/NSP?

This way, the BG can spend more of its time using its MANY abilities (buff/debuffs) and less having to channel for 3 seconds to earn hate.
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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Bozzax
Posts: 2102

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#74 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:39 pm

That is the thing don't spam stuff off cd

Plan ahead and use sequences that makes sense Howl/eb/punt if you are punting.

KD/CW/CD/EB/CF/CA will make runies sweat etc
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#75 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 7:49 pm

Bozzax wrote:That is the thing don't spam stuff off cd

Plan ahead and use sequences that makes sense Howl/eb/punt if you are punting.

KD/CD/EB/CF/CA will make runies sweat etc
Well your last combo is 7 GCDs... So... I would HOPE that an unguarded squishy class would sweat if you get 7 GCDs off uninterrupted.....

Also, you dont get Filled with Fury for your CD. Then by the time you use CF/CA your Filled with Fury is gone again. You didnt snare, or do any debuffs (such as toughness/armor)

There is a HIGH chance that durign premade play (which is where we are supposed to balance around right?) During 7 GCDs a tank will swap guard, and/or PUNT you away... which means you wasted several seconds without even putting pressure on... Meanwhile a BO (leaving Chosen out cause auras are EZ mode) has likely "stole" 3 stats (buffing your group) in the meantime AND didnt waste 3 seconds in EB - trying to gain hatred to be able to do things like a decent armor debuff...

Howl -> EB -> Punt will not give you a super punt. You wasted 30 Hate, EB gets it back (over 3 seconds) and then Punt... 5 GCDs to "reliably punt" and considering you had to be at 90+ hate ALREADY to super punt... "Setting it up" took 5 seconds. Or you can just Super punt @ 100 hate... Which is fine and good.. however then you cant use things like FH or CD or Shield until post-punt (which i what you do obviously) but then your also having to pepper in armor debuff, snare, Crush the Weak, etc. inbetween all that as well.

It took me a while to see it. Im not saying "Buff BG" Thats NOT my goal. Im merely trying to point out why BG will always be a "lower tier tank" than the other tanks.... It revolves around wasted time generating hate because all the "reasons you would bring a BG to a party" are largely mutually exclusive... To where you can only do 2 or 3 things at any given time (as illustrated in your above examples even DUE TO hate restriction) where other tanks DONT face that same issue and when properly played, can move around their entire kit depending on situations within just a FEW GCDs.... BG feels often too linear. When you enter a fight, other tanks can be buffing/debuffing instantly... BG has several GCDs of merely building hate to then be able to spend it... where you build up hate via EB, get to use 1-2 hate scalers then 1-2 spenders then sit in EB again for 3 seconds.... You spent half your time merely "generating hate"...

Hence my question to Torq. I dont want to wall-o-text more than I am (I know... Im sorry!!!!!) unless he is open to a discussion here around hate spend/generation for BGs...
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2761

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#76 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:23 pm

Torquemadra wrote:This will be said once, and once only, you will not be seeing an attrition or merging of abilities within the BG to simplify the class.
The thing is, in large scale fights you need acomplish your classes breaking point performance in a, maybe a 4-5 skill rotation. You just don't have the time to wait for mechanic to build and then having a 8 skill rotation on top of that aswell as Challange and HTL or other archetype abillties + morales, which is the case for both IB and BG to reach full defensive or offensive potential. The fights are simply over before you have had a chance to built it up properly. If you want these classes to see more use in warbands you probobly need to merge a couple of abillties or make some of the ST effects into AoE or group buffs.
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th3gatekeeper
Posts: 952

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#77 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 8:40 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:
The thing is, in large scale fights you need acomplish your classes breaking point performance in a, maybe a 4-5 skill rotation. You just don't have the time to wait for mechanic to build and then having a 8 skill rotation on top of that aswell as Challange and HTL or other archetype abillties + morales, which is the case for both IB and BG to reach full defensive or offensive potential. The fights are simply over before you have had a chance to built it up properly. If you want these classes to see more use in warbands you probobly need to merge a couple of abillties or make some of the ST effects into AoE or group buffs.
These are the two areas that I can see making adjustments to BG to make it more inline with other tanks:
- "build up time"
- ST effects -> AoE effects

I dont think merging is THE solution. I think you merely need to allow the BG to have multiple options - all dependent on the situation... More akin to how BO/SM move through their stances. There ARE some limitations there (and there should be with BG as well) but right now it takes too long to build up, and can be spent too quickly (with regards to hate scaling abilities becoming less than useful) as well as MANY of the BG abilities being ST in focus (both debuffs and buffs). So within a "5 skill rotation" in RVR... Bg might spend 3 of that inside EB to just build his mechanic, in order to use 2 abilities, where other tanks get to use 5 abilities...

Where in a "prefect world" you might see something more like:
- 2 NON hate related abilities used.
- 1 hate scaler
- 2 hate spenders

As a 5 move rotation. As an example... Where as right now its:
EB (3 sec) -> Super Punt (1sec) and then FH (1sec) or something...
Sulfuras - Knight
Viskag - Chosen
Ashkandi - Swordmaster
Syzzle - Bright Wizard
Curz - Marauder
Andrithil - Blackguard

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k1o3
Banned
Posts: 101

Re: [Implementation Feedback] Black Guard Mastery Tree

Post#78 » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:15 pm

Aha, I love it. Thank you. I'm not the theorycrafter type to have made something like this, I just have a 'sense', if you will - I can feel it.

@roadkill: abilities not worth using have no business being there, that's 1998 fluff and this is 2017. Also, most of the BG's setup is actually min/max in just about every possible scenario so idk what you're talking about.


I love how you guys make excuses for blatant fluff ? Like what.
- notkaspr <denail>

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