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In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

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Gravord
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Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#11 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:41 pm

peterthepan3 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:33 pm
Gravord wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:27 pm
peterthepan3 wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:23 pm


Actually I can assure you that a large portion of my damage did stem from Soulfire/Smite/Guilty Soul.

The fact of the matter is that In Pursuit! doesn't change the fact that the Wrath WP does pisspoor DPS overall, and isn't a threat against competent & equal-skilled enemies.

I'm honestly baffled as to why you keep beating on this dead horse? How many DPS WP do you see dominating the lakes and scenarios - even with this omgawd OP ability? A Wrath WP does about 50% of the burst of a WL or WH. There is literally 0 reason to take one into a group. A DPS DOK, on the other hand, provides the game's best HD, and has better DPS overall.
I beat that "dead horse" as you nicely called attempt to open discussion, because that skill itself is vastly overperforming in comparision to actual melee classes. I understand its your main but as a staff member you should show more care for overall gameplay balance than about keeping favorable advantage for class you play most.
Not my main, I'm actually a fan of removing the charge in favour of more damage and less healing so that it functions as a DPS while maintaining inherent mobility issues. That doesn't mean the ability is OP.

What you have done is provide a photo from a scenario, and have attributed topping the damage board as being a viable DPS. You have then put this together with the charge ability, and have inferred that the Wrath WP is OP.

What I have done is educate you on what actually happened/what this screenshot actually shows. It is up for you now to decide whether or not a 15pt charge ability that means dropping most of your defensive/melee heal potential, is 'still OP' on a class that does less single-target DPS than a 600str Swordmaster.
It might sound like crazy idea but instead change topic of the discussion into WP burst you could actually respond to all the comparision i wrote about melee and wp mobility difference and massive imbalance caused by that skill implementation.

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Azarael
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Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#12 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:43 pm

There is no imbalance except in your head. I'm telling you right now that you will get absolutely nowhere making a thread about one ability compared to another unless you can subsequently demonstrate that the build or builds it forms part of are overpowered because of that ability.

And since you'll be trying to demonstrate that Wrath WP is overpowered, you are done before you even start.

(I thought DoKs had this ability as well, btw. Why is DoK OK?)

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Ramasee
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Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#13 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:46 pm

Gravord wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:36 pm
GodlessCrom wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:30 pm
And yet no one died in that sc. Perhaps if theyd had Csi instead of peter they would have killed something. Dps WP has low burst and is really just not that great. If they bring back some .ab ex changes, then perhaps youd have a point.
That can happen when 2 strong teams meet.
Ramasee wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:31 pm
Also its a 15 point ability that takes 3 more mastery points to obtain that a normal build. By doing this even a rr70+ character has to give up Sigmar's Shield or Sigmar's Vision and it cannot be combined with grace of sigmar tactic for more damage healing.

Melee careers gain those two abilities for free, and nearly all their archtype abilities work with their dps spec. Same is not true for dps wps and DoKs.

In Pursuit is strong, its also a major build investment with opportunity costs.

http://www.ror.builders/career/warrior- ... ,4189,4149

Sorry what? WP need only rr60 for cookie cutter build which will offer him finisher ability (most dps doesnt have one), aa speed tactic (half melees doesnt have one), insane Sigmar's Shield that no melee have anything anywhere close in potency, 10% crit and parry tactic (no melee have one that potent), active Prayer and a ton other utylities for himself and the group.
And people only complain is that it doesnt have burst as most bursty dps classes? Be serious.
The build you posted is not the one used in your screenshot provided as evidence.

The fact that melee wp does not do bursty damage like a mdps is a strong reasoning as to why the 15 point ability is not OP for the class.

Now if it was attached to a real DPS, then yes I would say its OP.

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Gravord
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Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#14 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:50 pm

Azarael wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:43 pm
There is no imbalance except in your head. I'm telling you right now that you will get absolutely nowhere making a thread about one ability compared to another unless you can subsequently demonstrate that the build or builds it forms part of are overpowered because of that ability.

And since you'll be trying to demonstrate that Wrath WP is overpowered, you are done before you even start.

(I thought DoKs had this ability as well, btw. Why is DoK OK?)
Azarael wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 pm
Right. Second go at this post...

As aforesaid, you're isolating a particular ability which is powerful and comparing it to the equivalents on other classes without respecting the context of the rest of the class. This isn't how the balance forum works. You don't compare single abilities to their equivalents on other classes, you compare specs to specs. If a topic is made about Inevitable Doom's ST damage, for example, that topic can contextually be read to be about Skavenslayer ST DPS versus the other trees, because why else would we care about it?

What you have done is create a post that shows that one ability is more powerful than another. This is about as relevant as showing that Inevitable Doom is better than Lotsa Choppin'. The spec as a whole is what matters, and unless you're about to make a thread about how Wrath WP is overperforming, then this topic is going precisely nowhere, especially as I have other designs for WP myself.
You realize it makes no sense right? If dev X gave class Y skill that one shots everything it touches, why on earth would we have to discuss whole spec and build when one skill is overperforming and needs to be balanced.

Im not comparing one ability to another, if you would look closer instead defend change that should never be implemented in this shape, you would notice im comparing MOBILITY of a real melee class vs melee wp/dok and that comparisions doesnt look balanced.
Im not staying Wrath dps is op, im stating mobility he received outperforms moblity of actual melee only classes and that issue should be adressed.

Oh, slight miss on my part, obviously all the rebalance is adressed to Dok aswell. Thanks for pointing that out.

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Azarael
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Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#15 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:53 pm

You seem to be having trouble with this very, very basic concept.

Firstly, if a skill were introduced in a given spec which one shotted everything, then everyone would be running that spec. The problem would then fit what I said before - the ability needs to be tweaked because it makes x spec or y class overperform AS A WHOLE.

Nobody cares about cherry-picked comparisons between individual aspects of a class. The class as a WHOLE is what counts. WP is still balanced (or still underpowered) despite In Pursuit because it has weaknesses elsewhere despite mobility bonuses. Your entire argument could also be applied to WL because of Pounce, that's how ridiculous your position is.

If your next post in this topic does not indicate that you have fully understood you need to discuss Wrath WP AS A WHOLE rather than cherry picking its mobility and ignoring its ruinous lack of burst damage and utility debuffs, then this topic will be closed.

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Ramasee
Posts: 457

Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#16 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:00 pm

Wrath WP brings:
Poor Direct off-healing
Poor to okay lifetap off-healing
1 aura (heal proc/dmg proc, armor buff)
Rez (gl pulling it off)
Excellent self-survival (In pursuit helps)
Heal Debuff (no damage GCD required)
Poor Burst Damage
Okay Sustained

White Lion brings:
Huge Armor Debuff
High Burst Damage
Poor Sustained
A Knockdown
Has a Finisher as well
Burst Damage M1 or Good Survival M1
AoE Detaunt (no tactic)
Higher base damage abilities frees up tactic (no divine fury needed)
Tactics designed for more damage (like 15% in rear WAY better than 10% crit, +50% critical damage)

Slayer Brings (Basing off Career Build and guildmate discussion, I don't have one):
Good burst Damage
Good Sustained Damage
Heal Debuff
A Knockdown
AoE Detaunt (No Tactic)
Burst Damage M1 or Good Survival M1
Higher base damage abilities frees up tactic (no divine fury needed)
Tactics designed for more damage (like 15% in rear WAY better than 10% crit)

Probably more that I can't see or think of

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Gravord
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Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#17 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:06 pm

Azarael wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:53 pm
The class as a WHOLE is what counts.
And what is WHOLE class if not summary of all the skills and aspects (burst, sustain, survival, mobility)?
Azarael wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:37 pm
this topic is going precisely nowhere
Azarael wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:53 pm
]Nobody cares about cherry-picked comparisons between individual aspects of a class.
Azarael wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:43 pm
There is no imbalance except in your head
Azarael wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:53 pm
this topic will be closed.
I see its business as usual in RoR staff "respectfull" manner of discussing things. Instant derogatory attitude with threats of closing topic if its not discussing things the way you want it. I guess its a progress from instant ban threats but hoped for more after all big declarations.
Feel free to close it or ban me if it will make you feel better, worked in past for other staff members to shut down any opinion that is not cheering aplause. Wont waste my time trying to help server that devs feel the urge to immedietally respond in such a manner.

Panodil
Posts: 174

Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#18 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:10 pm

How is it helping server making a troll post on balance forum?
Panodil WP
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Azarael
Posts: 5343

Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#19 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:17 pm

I understand.

I feel I should make it clear that while I do not shut down discussions out of nowhere, I am not a doormat, either. My opposition to how RoR has been run does not mean that I will never lock a topic or end a discussion that is going nowhere, and my post should never have been read to imply that community members would become untouchable.

So. I asked you to make a post indicating that you understood you needed to compare the rest of the aspects of the class. You decided the best response was to imply that I'm either a tyrant or a disappointment, and claim that you issued such a summary. You did not, Ramasee had to step in and do it for you - the closest you got to a summary was implying a screenshot from Pan was indicative of a problem with the class when it was mostly AoE fluff damage. Every other post you've made has been on mobility and specifically mobility.

I apologise, sincerely, that my branch of reconciliation does not extend to misusing the balance forums, but I would wager from the rest of the thread that you stand very much alone in your opinion on WP. Therefore, the topic is locked.

If any other established member of the community feels that there is a problem with Wrath WP or Torture DoK, you are welcome to make a thread outlining how and why the specs are overperforming.

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peterthepan3
Posts: 6509

Re: In Pursuit - too strong dps WP ability

Post#20 » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:18 pm

Gravord wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:36 pm
GodlessCrom wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:30 pm
And yet no one died in that sc. Perhaps if theyd had Csi instead of peter they would have killed something. Dps WP has low burst and is really just not that great. If they bring back some .ab ex changes, then perhaps youd have a point.
That can happen when 2 strong teams meet.
Ramasee wrote:
Sat Aug 11, 2018 3:31 pm
Also its a 15 point ability that takes 3 more mastery points to obtain that a normal build. By doing this even a rr70+ character has to give up Sigmar's Shield or Sigmar's Vision and it cannot be combined with grace of sigmar tactic for more damage healing.

Melee careers gain those two abilities for free, and nearly all their archtype abilities work with their dps spec. Same is not true for dps wps and DoKs.

In Pursuit is strong, its also a major build investment with opportunity costs.

http://www.ror.builders/career/warrior- ... ,4189,4149

Sorry what? WP need only rr60 for cookie cutter build which will offer him finisher ability (most dps doesnt have one), aa speed tactic (half melees doesnt have one), insane Sigmar's Shield that no melee have anything anywhere close in potency, 10% crit and parry tactic (no melee have one that potent), active Prayer and a ton other utylities for himself and the group.
And people only complain is that it doesnt have burst as most bursty dps classes? Be serious.
No soulfire, no guilty soul, no parry ability, no increased lifetap.

I don't know who told you this was a cookie cutter build as it isn't for either dps or melee heal. At best, this will function as a solo/duo spec that has no bearing anywhere else.
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