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[Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

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Fenris78
Posts: 787

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#121 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:14 pm

Cimba wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:46 pm I mean you have to do the same for every dungeon run. It isnt really that hard.
Sadly the requirements, from gear to skill and knowledge of classes, are vastly different for ranked and for dungeons.

You cannot afford to run ranked with pickups (even if the discord is helping), and anyway as soon you got a stronger team facing you and lose, you wont try it again since the outcome will statistically be the same.
It could only work if there was, lets says... 3-4 groups queuing on each side at all times ; this way you could even out the win/loss knowing you will not always face the same opponent.

Anyway it's far from easy for small guilds (and overall small server pop) to find 5 other people with appropriate classes (you cannot setup a non-meta group as you could for a dungeon for example), and the gear, level of play required for ranked.

Besides it's the same issue about rewarding the effort, and bringing incentives to the table : grouping or not, it will never alleviate the cost of a loss (even if in this case, I agree, mmr loss wont matter), and after one defeat or two against the same team, group will just stop playing because no other goup to face ; better solo queue and hope for a good matchmaking than getting opponents free insignas...


Another option to incentivize could be rewarding group play with insignas, like :
- 1 insigna for a loss
- 3 insignas for a win

This way you get more people wanting to continue since the reward is reachable, even if it will take 3x needed matches most people wont care, and I dont think it will degrade level of play (ie. not caring about loss and sabotaging your team) since the reward is much greater for a win, exactly like all other game modes I would add.

That's the "binary 0/1" system wich is bothering me, like ranked was totally disconnected from other components and dont act the same way (dont reward people for time/effort invested).
In every other mode, being RvR, Fort, City or Scenarii, you feel much more rewarded for you time, even for a loss ; there is AAO system, you always got at least 1 oppressor after a scenario (and more if you managed your best), you got bags, even after fort and city you lost.
Your goal is reachable, even if it takes you far longer than the winners ; you dont have a brick wall in front of you saying "you cannot get to this until you win X %, forget about it", or "you have no friends amongst the best 80+ players to play with you ? Too bad, but it's your own fault".

I like the equity that have been put in place in all aspects or RoR (recently being fortress bags for defenders), but ranked is sadly made the wrong way around to be desirable and motivating, and I don't think the state of queue will disagree with that statement.

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Grious
Posts: 69

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#122 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:22 pm

I was one of those players who back when I heard about this I was interested in Ranked, couldn't join right away because Im a bit of a newer player, finally got to the needed requirements and started asking about it again. I was informed about the meta and how my class was not a part of it and told about the sheer gear deviation that is allowed to Q up for it. That was more than enough to make me not even attempt it. I don't want to end up dragging 5 other people down with me just because I got curious about a game mode that was made available to me. I am pretty sure there are a good amount of people turn off from ranked just by heard it described to them when they ask about it.

So I'm sure I have no-where near the time invested into this game as most people, but what if they made ranked purely skill based. I don't know how hard this would be but what if gear was normalized in ranked in an attempt to even out the gear playing field. It would hopefully mean that match ups would be more around knowing the ins and outs of your class and group and more importantly I think it would help bring in more interest into ranked. At the top of the top people are in BiS / Sov and you put them vs others in the same equipment and that would be fine but when you mix in alts, new players and returnee's skill goes out of the window and it just turns into seal clubbing.

Like mentioned earlier in the thread the healer in full vanq and rr60+ felt like the weakest link I would guess thats not because he had no idea what he was doing but because the gear differential is that bad. If you could find a way to remove that gear wall in ranked and make it purely skill vs skill I would think you would see better matches and also attract more players to the game mode who don't have to get past a silly gear wall.

Or not, again I have no ranked experience because my class isn't meta and I dont want to drag 5 people through the dirt because I just make the cut needed to Q for ranked.

Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#123 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:48 pm

Mergrim wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:01 pm Are you serious? collecting a group for 1 hour to play 1 game, which shows the advantage of one side>the end.
Any reason why we have 1k mmr req on solo que and no req in group ranked? there are more skilled players on ranked group?
For me nope.

Remember we have 95% casual players...
You can play us as often as you want with your team. Just let me know when you're ready to go.

Group ranked is a different game mode than solo ranked. You could remove the Emblems from group ranked and the Insignias from solo ranked. So you would need to participate in both game modes to get that precious BIS gear.

Fenris78 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:14 pm Sadly the requirements, from gear to skill and knowledge of classes, are vastly different for ranked and for dungeons.

You cannot afford to run ranked with pickups (even if the discord is helping), and anyway as soon you got a stronger team facing you and lose, you wont try it again since the outcome will statistically be the same.
It could only work if there was, lets says... 3-4 groups queuing on each side at all times ; this way you could even out the win/loss knowing you will not always face the same opponent.

Anyway it's far from easy for small guilds (and overall small server pop) to find 5 other people with appropriate classes (you cannot setup a non-meta group as you could for a dungeon for example), and the gear, level of play required for ranked.

Of course you can run with pickups. Doesithurt and me are pickups for Psychedelics. People just dont want to. Thats it.
What do you even mean by non-meta setups? Exodus has been stomping meta groups left, right and center with that nasty ranged setup. Psychedelics now usually plays with AM/Shamans on heal with a lot of success.

Fenris78 wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 5:14 pm Besides it's the same issue about rewarding the effort, and bringing incentives to the table : grouping or not, it will never alleviate the cost of a loss (even if in this case, I agree, mmr loss wont matter), and after one defeat or two against the same team, group will just stop playing because no other goup to face ; better solo queue and hope for a good matchmaking than getting opponents free insignas...


Another option to incentivize could be rewarding group play with insignas, like :
- 1 insigna for a loss
- 3 insignas for a win

This way you get more people wanting to continue since the reward is reachable, even if it will take 3x needed matches most people wont care, and I dont think it will degrade level of play (ie. not caring about loss and sabotaging your team) since the reward is much greater for a win, exactly like all other game modes I would add.

That's the "binary 0/1" system wich is bothering me, like ranked was totally disconnected from other components and dont act the same way (dont reward people for time/effort invested).
In every other mode, being RvR, Fort, City or Scenarii, you feel much more rewarded for you time, even for a loss ; there is AAO system, you always got at least 1 oppressor after a scenario (and more if you managed your best), you got bags, even after fort and city you lost.
Your goal is reachable, even if it takes you far longer than the winners ; you dont have a brick wall in front of you saying "you cannot get to this until you win X %, forget about it", or "you have no friends amongst the best 80+ players to play with you ? Too bad, but it's your own fault".

I like the equity that have been put in place in all aspects or RoR (recently being fortress bags for defenders), but ranked is sadly made the wrong way around to be desirable and motivating, and I don't think the state of queue will disagree with that statement.

Why does everything need to be accessible by just dumping enough time in it. Regardless of your effort/performance?
And its not like you need only top players. Currently you can face groups with vastly different skill level if you talk to the guys and girls.

Mergrim
Posts: 238

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#124 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:06 pm

Cimba wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:48 pm Why does everything need to be accessible by just dumping enough time in it. Regardless of your effort/performance?
And its not like you need only top players. Currently you can face groups with vastly different skill level if you talk to the guys and girls.
Why? becuase we have 800-900 ppl online on primetime...not 500k when you can just ignore all casual players.
You want BiS gear for 4-6 teams that can gather good 6man ? serious?
You have played normal sc? good 3man(tank/dps/heal) can stomp all those 80rr+ casual players...
If we add 1k mmr req on group ranked...you will have noone que group ranked.

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ufthakk
Suspended
Posts: 269

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#125 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:25 pm

Cimba wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:48 pm
Why does everything need to be accessible by just dumping enough time in it. Regardless of your effort/performance?
Why would you give better players further advantage? Doesn't help the idea of fair play.

Caduceus
Posts: 653

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#126 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:56 pm

NSKaneda wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:52 pm
Caduceus wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:31 pm I've said this before: there were hundreds of people who were willing to give Ranked a try. Where have they all gone?

I've got better things to do than que for 2 hours to have boring 10min fight that ends with one dead + 20min drama in /w after :roll:

Ok, but that 10 min fight with only 1 person dying, that IS Ranked.

So if you are not into that, I don't think Ranked is for you, honestly.

I think a 2 hour wait for a good match is worth it. A 2 hour wait for a total mismatch, not so much.
"I watched a snail crawl along the edge of a straight razor. That's my dream; that's my nightmare. Crawling, slithering, along the edge of a straight razor... and surviving." - Colonel Walter E. Kurtz

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ufthakk
Suspended
Posts: 269

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#127 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:06 pm

Caduceus wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:56 pm
I think a 2 hour wait for a good match is worth it.
U really serious about that ?!? Probably i just don't get the irony ;)

Cimba
Posts: 376

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#128 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:07 pm

ufthakk wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:25 pm
Cimba wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:48 pm
Why does everything need to be accessible by just dumping enough time in it. Regardless of your effort/performance?
Why would you give better players further advantage? Doesn't help the idea of fair play.
I see a proponent of the equal outcome instead of equal opportunity. I would love to cry "foul play" everytime I get a premade when I pug in cities. Sadly apprently nobody gives a ****.

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NSKaneda
Posts: 969

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#129 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:11 pm

Caduceus wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:56 pm
NSKaneda wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 4:52 pm
Spoiler:
Caduceus wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:31 pm I've said this before: there were hundreds of people who were willing to give Ranked a try. Where have they all gone?

I've got better things to do than que for 2 hours to have boring 10min fight that ends with one dead + 20min drama in /w after :roll:

Ok, but that 10 min fight with only 1 person dying, that IS Ranked.

So if you are not into that, I don't think Ranked is for you, honestly.

I think a 2 hour wait for a good match is worth it. A 2 hour wait for a total mismatch, not so much.

Yup, that's the same conclusion I arrived at: ranked is boring and toxic waste of time and I'm not gonna be bothered with it ;)
To quote one ranked hero: don't que ranked. Ever.
RoR: Burszui SH, Ropopuch SHM<|[]|>Ginnar IB, Vidarr HMR, Runatyr RP ++ REV guild ++
Live: Karak Izor -> Karak Norn - Yarpaen IB, Ginnarr SL, Volundr ENG +Ithilmar's Chosen+
* * * playing 19 classes - running out of char slots * * *

User avatar
ufthakk
Suspended
Posts: 269

Re: [Ranked]Let's fix ranked games before they die.

Post#130 » Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:30 pm

Cimba wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 8:07 pm
ufthakk wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 7:25 pm
Cimba wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 6:48 pm
Why does everything need to be accessible by just dumping enough time in it. Regardless of your effort/performance?
Why would you give better players further advantage? Doesn't help the idea of fair play.
I see a proponent of the equal outcome instead of equal opportunity. I would love to cry "foul play" everytime I get a premade when I pug in cities. Sadly apprently nobody gives a ****.
NO, i like equal opportunity. And to have equal opportunity in the future it shouldn't be suspended. The reason u doing pug city is to get loser reward i imagine.

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