armor and tanking

[freshour]

I would agree with you, but after doing some 1v1's with several other melee healers, and then getting to see a stream of one of the fights. I had maximum reduced chance to be parried, they were around 50% ish, and I had my debuff of -10% chance. So around 25% reduce chance to parry me.

On my screen I was behind him, on his screen on twitch he was 100% behind me the entire fight. The moral of that story was well over 50% of my hits were 100% parried and I parried almost nothing of his hits solely due to position which unless you have good ping is extremely hard to dictate in a melee fight unless you have the knocked down.

So I can personally account for that, not entirely sure on that situation in the front lines of a WB, but that was about as definitive of evidence as I have ever seen that parry is AMAZING if you have the ping and positioning to use it properly.

[Darosh]

go stand on the front line during a wb v wb fight, filter combat tab to self DD and check your blocks and parries - even if you make every conceivable attempt to always face the enemy i can promise that you will block and parry far, far, far fewer hits that your HARD block/parry percentages say that you should

1.) Sample size, if you get hit by a bajillion things some will get through. Cut out your avoidance in these situations and you faceplant on impact.*
2.) There are several abilities and tactics (e.g.: Rampage and the fireclown firething, whatever the name is, I am too lazy to look it up) , debuffs (e.g.: SW Pierce Defenses'') that either completly circumvent avoidances or lower them for all assailants and tactics that up the strikethrough of individual assailants (e.g.: too lazy, look it up). Sample size, if you get hit by a bajillion normal things and a bajillion powered up things, some will definitely get through, much more won't. Cut out your avoidance in these situations and you faceplant on impact.**
3.) Avoidance completly negates statuseffects (including CC). Sample size, if you get hit by a bajillion sticky things some will get through. Cut out your avoidance in these situations and you faceplant on impact.***

Competitive small scale (6v6 and 12v12) is an entirely diffrent story and yet similar in nature, if not only because avoidance reduces the chances of being mechanically outplayed. Casual small scale is akin to casual and organized large scale.

*Avoidance serves as buffer.
**Avoidance serves as lifebelt.
***Avoidance serves as semi-cleanse/RD; lowers the uptime of nasty stuff.
'' Fixed, mixed up things here.

TLDR:
There is not a single defensive stat that yields better returns, next in line are wounds and initiative.

Abbd.:
Differentiate between "true" avoidance and "natural" avoidance - .getstats.
Your effective avoidance (against everything with softcapped mainstats) is decisively lower than the avoidance displayed on the charactersheet. Natural avoidance accounts mostly for tanks (CC), healers (CC) and utility classes (CC) - and of course guarddamage.
Don't underestimate the impact of avoidance pushed past the 30% treshold, account for enemy strikethrough on gear tho.

E: Fixed some hiccup, added stuff, yada yada.

[tazdingo]

@freshour circlestrafing has always been troublesome garbage masqueraded as skill and is likely one of the reasons that so many people play ranged

1.) Sample size, if you get hit by a bajillion things some will get through. Cut out your avoidance in these situations and you faceplant on impact.*

this is not a revelation that i came up with after a single skirmish last night, this is years of observation and discussion with other dedicated tank players

i remember back on live there was a chosen who played for malice that i always looked up to. i forget his name. anyway, one day i saw him switch from snb to 2H and i PMd him to ask why. he said he just got sick of reading combat logs and not seeing a single block, and came to the conclusion that, in high level play, vs opponents who aren't going to be psyched out ("just go snb, people will think you're tanky and won't even bother attacking you"), carrying the thing was just worthless

yes he was a chosen with crazy parry but his group had a choppa + mara so i don't think he was very concerned about his own dps

2.) There are several abilities (Rampage) and debuffs (SW Flanking Shots) that either completly circumvent avoidance or lower it for all assailants, aswell as tactics that up the strikethrough (Fireclown firething, whatever the name is, I am too lazy to look it up). Sample size, if you get hit by a bajillion normal things and a bajillion powered up things will get through. Cut out your avoidance in these situations and you faceplant on impact.**

i disagree, because the classes with these strikethrough abilities are the very classes that you would want your avoidance to proc against. i do not care how many eagle eyes i get hit by, but i would really like to avoid that fireball

e - if i''m going to get hit by these power classes 95% of the time anyway, regardless of my avoidance, i'd rather have the wounds/toughness to just take the hit

3.) Avoidance completly negates statuseffects. Sample size, if you get hit by a bajillion sticky things some will get through. Cut out your avoidance and you faceplant on impact.***

lucky CC evasion was the one caveat i gave to avoidance, so we agree here

re abbd - i was careful to state that i was talking solely about hard avoidance

- OP was talking solely about survivability and didn't mention practical play or anything. my points relate only to playing a tank and surviving large scale encounters, keep pushes, flag defs, ect. i know very little about roaming or small scale group play

[Darosh]

this is not a revelation that i came up with after a single skirmish last night, this is years of observation and discussion with other dedicated tank players

i remember back on live there was a chosen who played for malice that i always looked up to. i forget his name. anyway, one day i saw him switch from snb to 2H and i PMd him to ask why. he said he just got sick of reading combat logs and not seeing a single block, and came to the conclusion that, in high level play, vs opponents who aren't going to be psyched out ("just go snb, people will think you're tanky and won't even bother attacking you"), carrying the thing was just worthless

yes he was a chosen with crazy parry but his group had a choppa + mara so i don't think he was very concerned about his own dps

You don't bring shields to block styles, you bring them to account for guarddamage and to provide HtL.

i disagree, because the classes with these strikethrough abilities are the very classes that you would want your avoidance to proc against. i do not care how many eagle eyes i get hit by, but i would really like to avoid that fireball

We talk large ORvR, no? In which case you shouldn't be concerned about Fireballs but Fiery Blasts - about you becoming an AoE battery. If you struggle to survive Fireballs in large scale clashes, chances are your healers gotta up their game a notch.
Moreso, why Eagle Eye, huh? My bad here I guess, I mixed the tactics up (tired as ****) - its 'Pierce Defenses' (-15% dodge,parry,block on crit for all assailants) on SW.

Abbd.:
Note: HtL accounts for Flashfire in regards to your group and Fiery Blast spams. If your opposition sports proper assists, well, no stat can safe you. Coordination > stats.
Additionally, there are hardly any good BWs around actively rotating ST and AoE, so meh. If there were any, the above still applies.
In regards to Fireball and Fiery Blast: Fiery Blast is exempt from the 100% strikethrough tactic.
In regards to strikethrough abilities: Not all of them have 100% uptime, its all about surviving bursts and building momentum - i.e.: avoidance helps you to get out of bursts and build momentum afterwards, moreso avoidance accounts for Rampage and ID after the fact, you really don't want to become a AoE battery if you can avoid it.
[I should go sleep, this add. spam is getting ridiculous, my apologies.]

re abbd - i was careful to state that i was talking solely about hard avoidance

Here again, my apologies I didn't pay enough attention. But I think stating this information never hurts, it accounts for those skimming through the forums ~

[tazdingo]

i play destro tanks near exclusively and have just never feared SWs in any regard, and that isn't a prdps thing cause engis these days can be a real threat. SWs must be good against squishes or something

i think we agree on most things, yes shield are amazing for guarding and is why dedi assist BOs love good wif shield. i just think that, if you aren't running with a group all the time and just want the comfy playstyle of getting in huge brawls and keep sieges and living through them (which seems to be kinda popular, have you counted the number of turtle BGs running around right now?), spending your RR elsewhere can often be a better idea

hell i'll go all in, if you're that kinda player i'd take regeneration over defender. yeah i said it

- i don't know ordo ability names i call everything BW does a fireball

[Darosh]

i play destro tanks near exclusively and have just never feared SWs in any regard, and that isn't a prdps thing cause engis these days can be a real threat. SWs must be good against squishes or something

i think we agree on most things, yes shield are amazing for guarding and is why dedi assist BOs love good wif shield. i just think that, if you aren't running with a group all the time and just want the comfy playstyle of getting in huge brawls and keep sieges and living through them (which seems to be kinda popular, have you counted the number of turtle BGs running around right now?), spending your RR elsewhere can often be a better idea

hell i'll go all in, if you're that kinda player i'd take regeneration over defender. yeah i said it

Yes, if you run soloroam you are generally better of with CW/RD + wounds/whatever, given pug engagements don't last long enough or yield a big enough sample size to get the proper avoidance returns rolling. Moreso you'll never encounter proper bombing or assists that'd have you to require this buffer, unless you run into organized opposition, in which case you die anyways.

But then again, it depends on the class - if the class you sport already yields a good base (e.g.: Chosen parry), there is no reason to push it to extremes that ultimately only account for specific sources of damage. You might aswell balance it out and invest into areas that your class is lacking in.

Abbd.:
Note: I only objected to your assessment in regards to warband settings, I assumed you meant organized play and clashes with organized opposition. Pug play is... well, pug play - no offense intended in that regard, its just that theres hardly a reason to even consider min/max'ing for it, imho.

[dansari]

If you play snb you shouldn't fear SW. If you go 2h you might.

[tazdingo]

Abbd.:
Note: I only objected to your assessment in regards to warband settings, I assumed you meant organized play and clashes with organized opposition. Pug play is... well, pug play - no offense intended in that regard, its just that theres hardly a reason to even consider min/max'ing for it, imho.

finding method in true chaos can be real fun

[Darosh]

Abbd.:
Note: I only objected to your assessment in regards to warband settings, I assumed you meant organized play and clashes with organized opposition. Pug play is... well, pug play - no offense intended in that regard, its just that theres hardly a reason to even consider min/max'ing for it, imho.

finding method in true chaos can be real fun

Thats true, however I stick to building groups - equally at chaotic as times, however alot less inherently infurating.