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Instead of Morale drains.

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2727

Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#11 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:31 am

Xergon wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:08 am
roadkillrobin wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:04 am
Xergon wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:57 am



So, if i understood it correctly, u want to balance game in a way, where lower RR and worse geared side can beat higher RR and better geared side by Randomness of Proc Ability ? HELL NO to that my friend, specially if its attached to Abilites.
The game is allready ballanced that way.

Using Morales is not a random/chance proc, so its not balanced that way.
There's tons of stuff in the game that uses percentage chances. Block, Disrupt, Parry, Dodge, Damage procs, crit damage, on crit procs, Morale drains, mechanic gain tactics, etz.
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lefze
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Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#12 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:39 am

roadkillrobin wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:31 am
Xergon wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:08 am
roadkillrobin wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:04 am


The game is allready ballanced that way.

Using Morales is not a random/chance proc, so its not balanced that way.
There's tons of stuff in the game that uses percentage chances. Block, Disrupt, Parry, Dodge, Damage procs, crit damage, on crit procs, Morale drains, mechanic gain tactics, etz.
%chance to proc on effects like this also prevents warband from getting max effect for free. It's like the mara drains, if they were guaranteed you would only need one mara per warband, but the %chance requires the warband to be built up with several of them to work.
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Theseus
Posts: 522

Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#13 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:39 am

Hm, I won't say that your points are invalid. But if it does away with that boring as hell raze meta on tanks, I am all for it regardless the consequences. It would make the game so much mor fun an perhaps a bit more strategy based. That would be a huge plus.
Andyrion Ulthenair
Arphyrion Soulblade

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2727

Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#14 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:12 am

I would also like to add, that by seeing the tactic Fear proc apear on the target or buffhead etz would be a motivator to use it aswell. Currently, you can't see the effect of Morale drains represented in anyway as there is no enemy morale bar you see go down when it procs. It isn't nescesary ofc but such things adds a sence of achivement which imo increase the satisfaction of playing.
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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1773

Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#15 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:18 am

roadkillrobin wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:27 am
Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:06 am
So based on the less than 48 hours since patch changes, did you already count the handful of the dps RPs draining Destro, the possible sighting of an aoe specced WH and the amount of SnB utility specced tanky SMs draining people? :D
The amount of maras seems same as usual, but I don't think there is any massive draining going on yet that would somehow doom the whole destro realm...
Or didn't you just write a few weeks ago that you aren't even really playing the game?
Im not playing. Havn't really tested the changes either and I actually like them in theory. Any focus that aims to increase the warband vs realm experience is good imo.
This is a brand new reflection where I asked myself, "What happens if Morale drains just prevents both realms from ever using Morales. It creates a game where you don't get to use tools you have. Essentially you could just black out Morales from ORVR. I've always been bothered pre built morales aswell, and thats something that Morale drains can't really deal with. So I tought of a sollution of how it all could be solved.
So, despite not playing, you have ideas how others should play in warband environment and how their morales should work, nice. ;)

Previous morale drains (with shaite gains) prevented all of Order realm apart from BWs really getting morales out in RvR fights assuming 1-4 Maras were around in fights spamming mass drain everywhere. So lacking morales is absolutely nothing new for Order side players.
With recent changes, 3 of their classes were given option to spec for various drains, on somewhat less-than-most-popular warband classes, AoE spec WH, dps RP and utility spec SM. Instead of being a mythical creature, AoE WHs might become more seen in future, and people might realize how valuable having 1-2 dps RPs around is - and despite being called Swordmaster, the class has now excellent utility to pick from if they want to be SnB tank in warbands. None of their drains are on similar level of efficiency as Maras, which remains still one of the best picks for Destro WB. SM cannot spam theirs every second, mostly just WoH AoE drain assuming they not using AoE punt and being stupid (stance dancing so not perma AoE spam), WH DG has 10 sec CD and needs high mechanic points to be most effective - and dps RP, maybe they all too short for my eyes to find them or they remain still rare in orvr.
If this all threatens Destro morale possibilities in orvr... well, I'd wait and see - BO and CH still have their pump, Sorc with pump can keep waiting for M4 at distance, maybe the Maras and WEs and Choppas now take longer time reaching their M2s and whatelse in case they get jumped upon by a hoard of sneaky dps Runies or suicidal Dragon Gunners.

However now that various M2 aoe bomb morales were made equal, so no more random DoTs that you heal through but actual instant burst, and both sides having them - both sides now have the tools needed to delay or prevent these M2s from being used with too much ease.

And the best question is, will Order pugs now use these tools to aid their pug WBs by either delaying or prevent Destro wb from achieving fast morale dump? ;)

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Acidic
Posts: 1414
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Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#16 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:49 am

Pugs appear to only coordinate dumps at bottleneck holding where normally someone shouts it. So very much doubt the moral drains etc will make a diff for pugs.

But I do dislike the increase in moral mini game getting more and more inclusion, the instant impact changes seems to me to be the wrong direction. Although I did like the placement of drains onto off specs

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2727

Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#17 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:13 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 11:18 am
roadkillrobin wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:27 am
Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:06 am
So based on the less than 48 hours since patch changes, did you already count the handful of the dps RPs draining Destro, the possible sighting of an aoe specced WH and the amount of SnB utility specced tanky SMs draining people? :D
The amount of maras seems same as usual, but I don't think there is any massive draining going on yet that would somehow doom the whole destro realm...
Or didn't you just write a few weeks ago that you aren't even really playing the game?
Im not playing. Havn't really tested the changes either and I actually like them in theory. Any focus that aims to increase the warband vs realm experience is good imo.
This is a brand new reflection where I asked myself, "What happens if Morale drains just prevents both realms from ever using Morales. It creates a game where you don't get to use tools you have. Essentially you could just black out Morales from ORVR. I've always been bothered pre built morales aswell, and thats something that Morale drains can't really deal with. So I tought of a sollution of how it all could be solved.
So, despite not playing, you have ideas how others should play in warband environment and how their morales should work, nice. ;)

Previous morale drains (with shaite gains) prevented all of Order realm apart from BWs really getting morales out in RvR fights assuming 1-4 Maras were around in fights spamming mass drain everywhere. So lacking morales is absolutely nothing new for Order side players.
With recent changes, 3 of their classes were given option to spec for various drains, on somewhat less-than-most-popular warband classes, AoE spec WH, dps RP and utility spec SM. Instead of being a mythical creature, AoE WHs might become more seen in future, and people might realize how valuable having 1-2 dps RPs around is - and despite being called Swordmaster, the class has now excellent utility to pick from if they want to be SnB tank in warbands. None of their drains are on similar level of efficiency as Maras, which remains still one of the best picks for Destro WB. SM cannot spam theirs every second, mostly just WoH AoE drain assuming they not using AoE punt and being stupid (stance dancing so not perma AoE spam), WH DG has 10 sec CD and needs high mechanic points to be most effective - and dps RP, maybe they all too short for my eyes to find them or they remain still rare in orvr.
If this all threatens Destro morale possibilities in orvr... well, I'd wait and see - BO and CH still have their pump, Sorc with pump can keep waiting for M4 at distance, maybe the Maras and WEs and Choppas now take longer time reaching their M2s and whatelse in case they get jumped upon by a hoard of sneaky dps Runies or suicidal Dragon Gunners.

However now that various M2 aoe bomb morales were made equal, so no more random DoTs that you heal through but actual instant burst, and both sides having them - both sides now have the tools needed to delay or prevent these M2s from being used with too much ease.

And the best question is, will Order pugs now use these tools to aid their pug WBs by either delaying or prevent Destro wb from achieving fast morale dump? ;)
Im not sure what you argue against? The suggestion would apply equally on both sides and replace the current morale drain mechanic. And instead of just locking both realm out of using Morales completly it would delay the drop without preventing morales points to be gained and thereby giving acess to Morale 4 but with a delay of up 15 seconds, enough time to make the static combat tools to be relevant instead of just favoring Morale drops.

Me not playing the game is kinda relevant as it removes any reason for me to make a biased sugestion as i don't really benefit from it. All i'm doing atm is logging in and test new skills and tactics to see how they behave. I have enough experience from playing with premade guild warbands to understand how warbands in ORVR operates.

SM have no issue spamming AoE btw. You don't have to use Perfect Ballance skills. Shift-Improved Ballance- Normal Ballance-Improved-Ballance, repeat. It's the rotation you used to spread RESS debuff in the past.

Im not sure why you bring up Dragon Gun. Dps Runie is in a good spot and I would love to play one atm.
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live4treasure
Posts: 267

Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#18 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:45 pm

Part of the reason such a thing wouldn't be quite as good as usual morale drain is because you then would only have one morale drainer in your entire warband. Maybe two at most. Considering how moral drain was placed onto off-specs to facilitate their use in rvr, if you then create a mechanic that indirectly places a cap on how many of such specs you may have, that defeats the initial purpose. I like the idea of fear, but the way it's done doesn't seem good to me. It also creates a balance issue for smallscale pvp because many classes rely on their M1 to do certain key things that's expected of them, and locking them out it for x seconds that can then stack for 15 seconds is worse then draining them, imo
Giladar - rr 80 DPS AM

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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2727

Re: Instead of Morale drains.

Post#19 » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:25 pm

live4treasure wrote:
Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:45 pm
Part of the reason such a thing wouldn't be quite as good as usual morale drain is because you then would only have one morale drainer in your entire warband. Maybe two at most. Considering how moral drain was placed onto off-specs to facilitate their use.
I don't agree. You basicly need to proc it 3 times on the whole enemy frontline to get the full effect. Vs a full warband you need to land 192 hits that bypasses Block/Parry/Disrupt. Even with 8 drainers in the warband they would need to land 24 hits each thats all lands within 15 seconds. Thats about 3 seconds IF no attacks get avoided 1 drainer wouldn't be enough.
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