AM/Shaman and General Balance.

[Tesq]

Spoiler:

quote=Illiyara post_id=332355 time=1541477890 user_id=5172]

Here an exemplification as am/sh meccanoc work and why the op have some point..

If you have 5 stack of heal then the next 5 dmg stuff you do recive willp as int, yes you lack crit but still you are able to perform or swap to dps mode with out any significant investiment addind dmg when you supppse not to (still benefith from enemy chance to be crit).

This is not quite how the mechanic works. All it does is increase the raw damage/healing you do from basic stats, but it doesn't give you more int or wp, so in your example, you will still get a lot of disrupt on your damage spells because of your low int. The stats you get from mechanic also don't give you quite as much damage as a dps AM would be. Compared to a dps AM, those 5 spells will be missing:
-damage from mastery points
-25% damage from divine fury
-10% crit from tactic, more from gear and renown
-10% strikethrough from tactic, more from int and gear
-more bonuses from tactics

With the mechanic, a heal AM can do some damage, but it's still far from dps spec. When it comes to damage, it's mostly useful to help seal the killing blow. Without the mechanic, your damage might as well not exist, and at best, you can use 5 empowered damage spells in a row. I think this is reasonable.

The problem of sh/am in heal mode supppse to be lifetaps landing on target. Atm the heal am/sh are indeed doing dmg valies they supppse not to.
Lifetaps stuff like balance essence work very well instead.

Hit something should not translate in do dmg tought

I'm not sure what you mean here. The mechanic does not increase the damage of lifetaps (it only increases their chance to hit). When the mechanic was reworked, AM/sham lifetaps were changed so their damage doesn't benefit from any stats, so they do almost negligible damage. Lifetaps are now just another way to heal.

The opposite is true for dps am /sh aswell as they are able to switch to heal.mode and cast 5 group heals if required and profit from the core hide 10% crit chance all healer have(which make easier to crit a group heal than 1 st dmg skill).

Again its the stats conversion to hit there.

The stats conversion or anyway the lack of stats was again related to hit stuff with life tap in heal mode, since life taps are 20% harder to block/disrupt now there is no need for stats conversion. That part of meccanic is a "bit" flawled and good ppl know how to profit from it.
Yes is few dmg /heal more compared to what they should do but it's still dmg/heal that should not be there (few...im same cases i saw not bad scoreboard and in this case there is not the aoe deus ex macchina to save the appereance)

A dps AM's healing with the mechanic is "ok", but still quite far from a heal AM. You get buffed stat contribution, but will lack:
-20% healing because you have divine fury slotted, more from mastery points
-10% healcrit from tactic, more from gear and renown
-desperation tactic (40% healing when HP is below 25%)
-AP regeneration from tactics

And as before, you need the mechanic for this, otherwise your heals are truly crap.

I do get high damage in SC as dps AM, but there is a lot of AoE damage or useless dot damage included there. When the other side lacks heals, I'll get lots of killing blows, too, otherwise most of that damage just gets grouphealed or hotted. Overall, dps AMs can put out a lot of damage, but I'd say they still lack the real killing power of true rdps because their damage is not bursty, so they need the utility to compensate.

Aka focus with 2 melee then add 5 offensive skill from am/sh with are coevalent to 5 siill assist from an off tank. Yoir 6vs 6 balance became 7vs6 balance.

I'm not sure what you mean here, but it sounds like you think AM/sham can dps and heal at the same time. This is not true since lifetaps were changed. You can only cast one thing at once, your offensive power is weaker than a true dps, and your heals will still be significantly weaker than a specced healer and limited by mechanic charges. Imo, AM/sham are fine atm.
[/quote]

Just for your knowledge i own an am rr 40+ and you fail on some points

-empowering cut yoir ap cost /cast time by wbat 20%?
-boost yoir dmg/heal by25%
Medium int from dps is 900-1000 vs 700willp for a healer,


So the heal you do as dps have a higher tooltips value due stats than normaly; what they lack is only crit. Moreover the ap cost reduction and ap drain make able you to do the **** you want which is fine and good just the dmg/healing output by playing hybrid is a bit off which is far than saying they are op.....the values are a bit off. Heal am/sh do mostly right, dps am do low dmg and in fact i said if anyone ever had any prob, to just spec some spiritual talisman....

While hybrid is doing good pure gameplay is not rewarded much aka most likely 5pt dmg should buff dmg and 5pt heal should buff heals and the 25% buff which happen in the opppsite case as currently be removed entirely to put hybrid a bit more in line and reward specialozation a bit more aince i have to say hybrid gameplay is viable post lifetaps and meccanics last changes. Still the class is very rewarding and satisfing to play i made my 40-45 in very few and had more fun than play my dok.

[Sulorie]

On a healing AM you would only use your dmg stacks for improved dmg skills, when your team already has the upper hand, either to secure kills or to assist a target, because not much healing is need.
Usually you use dmg stacks on lifetaps for fast mobile heals.

On dps spec your healing is very low, when being forced to kite against organized opposition.
On the archmage itself their healing doesn't even uses the stat conversion, on groupmates the empowered hot is quite good, it would be even great, if you don't slot 25%dmg -20%heal tactic.

Even dps lifetaps, albeit having ok healing, have too high cast time to be useful in 1vs1 engagements. They are only useful, when you first generate healing stacks, to reduce their cast time. Do I have to mention, that there is hardly time for it?

@Tesq: 900-1000 is not medium intel value, it is BiS. Around 950 is the best you can get without dropping wounds for 3 intel bonus. Getting more intel means you skip health to sub 6000 values, which means you most likely die during knockdown.

[bulgy70]

So let me get this right, you want to give the AM a damage buff? to a class which can out dps a dps class.

When your nerf comes, there is going to be a lot of AM's crying for weeks.

[Sulorie]

So let me get this right, you want to give the AM a damage buff? to a class which can out dps a dps class.

When your nerf comes, there is going to be a lot of AM's crying for weeks.

For the sake of goodwill let's assume you meant they outlast their opponent.

[Illiyara]

Small correction to the above and further comments.

Healer AM/Sh gets a 25% damage boost for instant cast spells, just like DPS AM/Sh gets the same boost for instant healing spells.

The optimal damage rotation for a healer, if you ever have time to use it in an even fight, is 3 DoTs -> Radiant Lance/Brain Buster -> Searing Touch/Bunch o' Waagh. This rotation utilizes all 5 Tranquility stacks, and out of the 5 spells used 4 of them recieve the 25% damage boost which effectively makes up for not having Divine Fury slotted. 3 DoTs and Searing Touch all recieve the 25% boost.

This is true, but I didn't mention it because dps or heal AM could do the same (though in the natural flow of combat it is much less likely). When healing, I like to use balance essence to pick up force stacks if the group is not in dire need of group healing so I can fart out a a few empowered group heals. As dps, you also can get this 25% bonus on top of DF, but would have to cast 5 unempowered heals first, which will rarely happen in a situation which matters.

Just for your knowledge i own an am rr 40+ and you fail on some points

-empowering cut yoir ap cost /cast time by wbat 20%?
-boost yoir dmg/heal by25%
Medium int from dps is 900-1000 vs 700willp for a healer

If a heal AM is using mechanic properly, they'll also be benefiting (and probably more often) from those bonuses. I will concede the dps AM can more easily get out a quick burst of empowered heals than a pure healer, since they'll be at 5 force more often.
As Sulorie said, that's BiS level int for AM, not medium.

So the heal you do as dps have a higher tooltips value due stats than normaly; what they lack is only crit. Moreover the ap cost reduction and ap drain make able you to do the **** you want which is fine and good just the dmg/healing output by playing hybrid is a bit off which is far than saying they are op.....the values are a bit off.

Maybe this comes down to a gearing difference, as my heal build is currently very glassy, too, but my unempowered heal numbers in heal build (ignoring crit and such) are substantially higher than I can get as a dps using the mechanic. At best, my empowered hots might do as much as healer with that 25% bonus + stat bonus, but that's not exactly saving anyone's life. And that's not mentioning tactics, as desperation is a big deal. Heal AM overall will also benefit from the AP cost reduction and drain magic if they're playing right.

If your willpower is not as high, you've traded it for survivability, which is not something to ignore in the comparison, imo. Also, your mechanic will not give you stats when healing yourself.

While hybrid is doing good pure gameplay is not rewarded much aka most likely 5pt dmg should buff dmg and 5pt heal should buff heals and the 25% buff which happen in the opppsite case as currently be removed entirely to put hybrid a bit more in line and reward specialozation a bit more aince i have to say hybrid gameplay is viable post lifetaps and meccanics last changes. Still the class is very rewarding and satisfing to play i made my 40-45 in very few and had more fun than play my dok.

I agree hybrid is doing good and satisfying to play, though as live4treasure says, it's in an awkward spot for premades. I've always loved AM, and only here on RoR has it actually fulfilled the promises made for what it would be on retail. Now this is just my opinion, but I don't want to have more specialization in one role, as that would effectively lock out half my class, which is boring imo.

So let me get this right, you want to give the AM a damage buff?

No one I see is talking about a dps buff without a healing nerf to go with it.

[veritas8]

this is called playing with the mechanic , drop 5 heals to power up , and drop ur rotation . thats not hard , if he ended doing great healing was probably because he was using hots all time, if he was good he would spread em on frontline,

The real question is, u have all the tools to murder him , double hd , snare and incognito to sneak behind him , if he has free cast on a backline, then its solely you and ur team fault , not the character per se.

its amazing lately how people claims op class xxx because a decent player use a class to the fullest.
And sorry to say but if i was a sorc at lvl 30 i would obliterate ur wh too if i had free cast and u did not had a guard because my burst at that lvlo would make for a non good healer to save u .

but following that logic ,, nerf sorc , or magus

OK man. You're right. I am a bad player. You're the greatest. The game is perfect. No need to ask why something seems way off......

I was able to kill him a couple times, but his DPS was WAY off compared to everyone else. It may be a tier issue. I don't know, but you can take your condescending tone and shove it up your......You're smart I am sure you can figure it out.

[peterthepan3]

MultiDoTing efficiently will result in highest damage achieved. This, however, is not the same as DPS.

[adamthelc]

this is called playing with the mechanic , drop 5 heals to power up , and drop ur rotation . thats not hard , if he ended doing great healing was probably because he was using hots all time, if he was good he would spread em on frontline,

The real question is, u have all the tools to murder him , double hd , snare and incognito to sneak behind him , if he has free cast on a backline, then its solely you and ur team fault , not the character per se.

its amazing lately how people claims op class xxx because a decent player use a class to the fullest.
And sorry to say but if i was a sorc at lvl 30 i would obliterate ur wh too if i had free cast and u did not had a guard because my burst at that lvlo would make for a non good healer to save u .

but following that logic ,, nerf sorc , or magus

OK man. You're right. I am a bad player. You're the greatest. The game is perfect. No need to ask why something seems way off......

I was able to kill him a couple times, but his DPS was WAY off compared to everyone else. It may be a tier issue. I don't know, but you can take your condescending tone and shove it up your......You're smart I am sure you can figure it out.

As far the damage goes, it can be high, there is no denying that. But if you try you can make any dps get pretty high damage. The difference is that it's pretty easy on an AM/Shaman. You are ranged, you can support yourself and as long as you play well you should have strong numbers regardless of your group or the other teams group.

A dok at 29 or especially 30 is just as much of a beast or more. But it can suffer more from strong opposing teams or weak supporting teams.

As far as healing and damage numbers. T2/T3 have less premade, which leads to more disorganized play and less focusing. So if you spam hots on your group to build your mechanic it can do a lot of healing as long as the other side isnt good enough to actually kill anyone.

AM and Shamans are good, especially in that tier. But a lot of that is just because of how easy they are. It takes much effort to catch one who doesnt want to be caught, without overextending, than it is to play one effectively.

A lot of time it's better for a win if you just let them put up their numbers and constantly fall back while you take out targets who are easier to kill. They arent necessarily hard to kill, you just dont want to put yourself in a compromising position to do so. Especially if you are pugging and dont have a guarantee of support.

The one thing I dont think they need is a heal debuff with a 100ft range and a 10 second CD. There are some dps who dont even get a heal debuff and of the ones that do, none of them are that good. The only heal debuffs you could say are better are possibly the AoE heal debuffs that belong to other healers.

[Foomy44]

The one thing I dont think they need is a heal debuff with a 100ft range and a 10 second CD. There are some dps who dont even get a heal debuff and of the ones that do, none of them are that good. The only heal debuffs you could say are better are possibly the AoE heal debuffs that belong to other healers.

Are you forgetting about spammable healdebuffs SW and SH (which come out to ~97 foot range after tactic I believe if that's to be your main argument against them being worse)? FYI shammy healdebuff is 20sec CD.

[adamthelc]

Wasnt forgetting, but it also has an ailment requirement which isnt a big deal. SW/SH is arguably better, but 10 seconds is really as short as you need one to be.

Even if you want to say the SH/SW HD is better, Scatter the Winds is still better than the vast majority of HD that dps have. Especially when you compare it to that Sorc HD.

You are right though I was talking about the AM heal debuff. Dont really have an issue with the Shaman HD.

It's not game breaking in any way, but it doesnt really make sense why they need such a good HD.

My argument is what dps class wouldnt trade their HD for the AM HD? SH/SW maybe? Maybe Marauder because of tactics?