AM/Shaman and General Balance.

[Jimsey0000]

I am struggling to understand how a full tanky Chosen (full tough/resi/hp regen/block/D+D) is dying to 1 DPS AM in so fast a time, when a defensive Magus can outlive DPS AM indefinitely.

Also: 4k armor isn't a huge deal whatsoever on a SNB tank. Engineer can armor debuff + demolishing strike you down to circa 1.5k values, then factor in APR (25% pen) and WS = you will be pretty squishy for the duration of APR and DS. You need much higher levels of armor.

(Bear in mind that Sorc/BW/Magus can hit tanks consistently hard).

4k armor is alot for a destro tank, not much for an order tank, but none of this really has anything to do with engineers. the logical thing to do would be to stop buffing engineers, not buff them and say "hey mister RR71 tank, stack more armor, so you can last 3 seoncds against an RDPS class that was originally a utility DPS class, but we want to keep the utility while buffing their damage because reasons"

[Jimsey0000]

Actually only the same few players cry on forums. ^_^

Ah so THAT'S the reason why this server lost several hundred players over the course of a year or so, and drove some of the admins to quit, and start working on their own server. It's only the forum people who cry, after all, nobody else could possibly be disapponted with the way things are going.

I am sure the population isn't gone, because certain shield tanks fail to survive against a single magical rdps. Casters btw are originally the archetype counter to tanks.
You whole post begs the question, why you sit on a flag waiting. It's not like this is the fastest way to progress in this game.

So who is your chosen? Burnheart by any chance?

Warhammer had a multi role system, it didn't have a hardlined trinity system even though the staff here, for whatever reason, wants to force a hardlined trinity system on the game. i know caster mains have the narcissistic attitude, especially on here, that they are supposed to be a tank counter, but there never has been any evidence for that in any MMORPG outside ones made by the caster-worshippers at Mythic, and even they did not say casters were out-right counters to tanks, it really doesn't make any sense once you think about it. Why should class archetypes with more mobility, multiple get out of jail free cards, and ranged attacks, who can choose their targets, and run away with ease be the counter to a class archetype that has to grin and bear every situation they encounter? Why, besides the inherent caster-main ego, that is.

As for why should one stand on a BO that's beside the point. Tanks are the front line, not the backline, though in games made by mythic it never really has felt that way, they feel more like support, and the casters/stealthers feel more like the actual mainstay of the army. Thankfully mythic died, so we don't have to worry about such an ass-backwards pvp design philosophy much anymore outside mythic remnants, who seem to want to bring back dark age of castalot with CU.

[Telen]

If that is the case (it is) balance has to explain why other classes have to bring in teamplay (sustain, mitigation, debuff combinations) while 1 archetype/class can combine everything in itself.

Well no dd healer will ever match the dps of a true dd. So no matter what else it brings it will always be subpar in a team game where you want pure roles. Sustain isnt a thing in War outside pug or solo, heals can easily keep pace with sustained dot with high ap regen. Being a rvr game where massive amounts of heals and aoe gets thrown around then burst is king in single target dd. Thats something dot classes have always lacked and why they didnt cut it in live. Its only the changes to magus/engi st dps that made them viable.

[Telen]

Since when do sorc had a HD. give the man a cookie
AM still have serious advenmtage with his debuffs over shaman, namely 2 very important wich would lead always to a victory of the am .
1: am can cleanse gobo ap drain, gobo cannot clean it.
2: gobo cannot clean the am hd . since it do count as hex . ams do can.
and letas not forget am hd almost got no downtime just 1 sec , while gobo still got 10 ahead

Sorc, and to an extent BW where HD isnt part of your main rotation, dont need HD because they can timestamp burst between heals.
All healers have one type they cant cleanse. Shaman have cleanse advantage over AM due to being able to cleanse BW dot rotation. While AM is full panic mode when WoD lands.

[peterthepan3]

I am struggling to understand how a full tanky Chosen (full tough/resi/hp regen/block/D+D) is dying to 1 DPS AM in so fast a time, when a defensive Magus can outlive DPS AM indefinitely.

Also: 4k armor isn't a huge deal whatsoever on a SNB tank. Engineer can armor debuff + demolishing strike you down to circa 1.5k values, then factor in APR (25% pen) and WS = you will be pretty squishy for the duration of APR and DS. You need much higher levels of armor.

(Bear in mind that Sorc/BW/Magus can hit tanks consistently hard).

4k armor is alot for a destro tank, not much for an order tank, but none of this really has anything to do with engineers. the logical thing to do would be to stop buffing engineers, not buff them and say "hey mister RR71 tank, stack more armor, so you can last 3 seoncds against an RDPS class that was originally a utility DPS class, but we want to keep the utility while buffing their damage because reasons"

Ahh...so you're one of those people who genuinely believe Engineer is utility first, dps second, and that an Engineer should never actually be able to fulfill the role of DPS because of the supposed utility they bring that would justify this position.

4k is low armor for a tank.

[Telen]

caster-worshippers at Mythic

WAR is the most tank centric mmo ever made. To the point where its not even close. High % based mitigation abilities coupled with the high ghealing in war makes them as necessary as healers. Its tanks that save you from burst and tanks that strip and isolate so you can kill. Along with the effectiveness of bombing and necessity of guards in rvr. Something no other mmo has even come close to putting tanks as game centric. Any player with multiple classes will tell you the most control over fights is as a snb tank.

[Arbich]

Since when do sorc had a HD. give the man a cookie
AM still have serious advenmtage with his debuffs over shaman, namely 2 very important wich would lead always to a victory of the am .
1: am can cleanse gobo ap drain, gobo cannot clean it.
2: gobo cannot clean the am hd . since it do count as hex . ams do can.
and letas not forget am hd almost got no downtime just 1 sec , while gobo still got 10 ahead

Sorc, and to an extent BW where HD isnt part of your main rotation, dont need HD because they can timestamp burst between heals.
All healers have one type they cant cleanse. Shaman have cleanse advantage over AM due to being able to cleanse BW dot rotation. While AM is full panic mode when WoD lands.

Shaman can´t cleanse BW. The "advantage" of shaman is, that WP can´t cleanse him, while AM can be cleansed by DoK (including DoK M2)

[lightsbane]

You gitz started to complain again?

First of all to play a git you have to embrace your inner git, choose your fights and be sneaky as hell. Gobbos have awesome tactics that ams dont have they are escape artists if you know what you are doing. I havent seen an am reach mach 3 yet . As for the bws yes you cant cleanse their dots but you can detaunt their dots and damage, you have 2 detaunts apply your dots to force their cleanse and ap drain them.i never had problem with my shaman and i leveled him from level 1 to 40 with orvr only and going solo just to troll people to chase me the moment that i reached 40 i was already rr 58 and i believe that i enjoyed playing a shaman since day 1. The essence of the game is to time your spells and skills and counter the offensive spells and skills its the same since 2008 being in a well balanced group helps a lot because thats the core of the game make friends group up and kill others before they kill you. Jono i am still waiting to see a gobbo group from FUSION

I will be back with you in game soon i hope

LightsBane, Frostea of Black Library, Rngesus of IMTT etc.
Flammea of Train Wreck, Theodred of Train Wreck COUGH*** SALT FACTORY etc.

[Foomy44]

AM still have serious advenmtage with his debuffs over shaman, namely 2 very important wich would lead always to a victory of the am .
1: am can cleanse gobo ap drain, gobo cannot clean it.
2: gobo cannot clean the am hd . since it do count as hex . ams do can.
and letas not forget am hd almost got no downtime just 1 sec , while gobo still got 10 ahead

That's only a serious advantage in a 1v1 which this game is not balanced around, in group situations the cleanses are both fine since they do both have their uses, and honestly I prefer my aoe damage HD with it's longer CD than what AM have, potential for a lot more damage and debuff stripping with Mork's Touch in large fights with the obvious drawback of being less useful at bursting 1 guy down. As a shammy you can always just run away from an AM in a 1v1 setting (assuming you can't kill them during 5 seconds of silence)

[Arteker616]

Since when do sorc had a HD. give the man a cookie
AM still have serious advenmtage with his debuffs over shaman, namely 2 very important wich would lead always to a victory of the am .
1: am can cleanse gobo ap drain, gobo cannot clean it.
2: gobo cannot clean the am hd . since it do count as hex . ams do can.
and letas not forget am hd almost got no downtime just 1 sec , while gobo still got 10 ahead

Sorc, and to an extent BW where HD isnt part of your main rotation, dont need HD because they can timestamp burst between heals.
All healers have one type they cant cleanse. Shaman have cleanse advantage over AM due to being able to cleanse BW dot rotation. While AM is full panic mode when WoD lands.

sorry cherry boy but again wrong, shaman do cannot clean the bw rotation.
any fight involving shaman vs am ends with shaman biting he dust or running up(unless am is brain dead) namely for a few reasons.
the shaman rotation need yes or yes the 5 healing stacks to be enough fast to be able to burst down , the am plays the slow but u are death game.
wich involve droping a detaunt, a ap drain followed of hots , and shield at this point the shaman cannot even finish the rotation and kill the am , then the am drop his dot ration refresh ap drain and use flash light . then detaunt.

have done enough duels with certain elf am namely angry elf rioz , to know exactly doesnt matter in the end the gobo run or die agaisnt a am due to the fact he cannot cleanse dots and ap drain, am does .