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The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

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Penril
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#41 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:12 pm

Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:05 pm I’m not sure that mythic designed 95% of RF build with 10ft range abilites only for a solo perspective and build 2 high radius abilties for being able to be backline . If they wanted them to be backline spec , I think mythic would give them another mechanic or more tool to build RF at range
Grace can (could? ahhhh these RoR changes i haven't kept up with...) be played in a 6-man as well. Just don't put him in the spot of a dedicated healer. This is pretty much the huge mistake most people do; Sacrifice is not meant to keep your party alive. It is meant to do good damage (Sacrifice/Torture was the best DPS spec for Dok for years) while keeping good ST healing.

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Grunbag
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#42 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:15 pm

Penril wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:12 pm
Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:05 pm I’m not sure that mythic designed 95% of RF build with 10ft range abilites only for a solo perspective and build 2 high radius abilties for being able to be backline . If they wanted them to be backline spec , I think mythic would give them another mechanic or more tool to build RF at range
Grace can (could? ahhhh these RoR changes i haven't kept up with...) be played in a 6-man as well. Just don't put him in the spot of a dedicated healer. This is pretty much the huge mistake most people do; Sacrifice is not meant to keep your party alive. It is meant to do good damage (Sacrifice/Torture was the best DPS spec for Dok for years) while keeping good ST healing.
Still doesn’t answer my questions ? Why mythic said they need to make sure DoK and WP shouldn’t heal at range , and why is there no ranged abilities to build RF (range is different from radius)
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Penril
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#43 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:15 pm

Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:10 pm THere is this quote from mythic dev that makes me think they were not done with WP / DoK :
« To be 100% frank any ranged caster will not get the same level of survivability a career we intend to be in the middle of a fight to get. Now The complaint of WP/DoK can stand back and heal from a distance as well as I can is also valid and rest assured we will do more to make sure that these classes are close to The fight where they belong to be 100% effective. »

It’s from 2011
No original WAR dev was still working for Mythic by 2011, so you can't use that quote to justify how you think the class was meant to be played. If from 2011, that quote is most probably from Keaven Freeman.
Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:15 pm
Still doesn’t answer my questions ? Why mythic said they need to make sure DoK and WP shouldn’t heal at range , and why is there no ranged abilities to build RF (range is different from radius)

As i said, that was probably Keaven. Not the original Mythic devs. And i think that complaint is invalid anyway, but explaining it will probably derail the original conversation (about melee healing needing a buff).

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Grunbag
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#44 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:18 pm

Penril wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:15 pm
Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:10 pm THere is this quote from mythic dev that makes me think they were not done with WP / DoK :
« To be 100% frank any ranged caster will not get the same level of survivability a career we intend to be in the middle of a fight to get. Now The complaint of WP/DoK can stand back and heal from a distance as well as I can is also valid and rest assured we will do more to make sure that these classes are close to The fight where they belong to be 100% effective. »

It’s from 2011
No original WAR dev was still working for Mythic by 2011, so you can't use that quote to justify how you think the class was meant to be played. If from 2011, that quote is most probably from Keaven Freeman.

I can check Mythic balance forum to give you the Dev name if you want , not sure it matter.
I’m not justifying anything , just quoting mythic from career desc , path desc and some quote from dev. I don’t think there is anywhere you can find mythic says they are meant to be backline .
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Penril
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#45 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:25 pm

Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:18 pm
I can check Mythic balance forum to give you the Dev name if you want , not sure it matter.
I’m not justifying anything , just quoting mythic from career desc , path desc and some quote from dev. I don’t think there is anywhere you can find mythic says they are meant to be backline .
I don't think there is anything you can find from Mythic that says they shouldn't be able to heal from the backline.

I also don't think there is anything you can find from Mythic that says their melee heal specs should be able replace a full backline healer in a 6-man or Warband.

Anyway, good chat. Gotta do some more stuff at my office. TTYL.

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Grunbag
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#46 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:33 pm

Penril wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:25 pm
Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:18 pm
I can check Mythic balance forum to give you the Dev name if you want , not sure it matter.
I’m not justifying anything , just quoting mythic from career desc , path desc and some quote from dev. I don’t think there is anywhere you can find mythic says they are meant to be backline .
I don't think there is anything you can find from Mythic that says they shouldn't be able to heal from the backline.

I also don't think there is anything you can find from Mythic that says their melee heal specs should be able replace a full backline healer in a 6-man or Warband.

Anyway, good chat. Gotta do some more stuff at my office. TTYL.
The quote is from Adam Gershowitz and he’s a former dev since before release.

I forgot they designed a melee healer is because they think they can perform in this role. The quote from Adam G is the right illustration of mythic saying they shouldn’t be better at backline. This is the real question you’re right : how to make a melee healer replace a full backline healer ?
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Penril
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#47 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:46 pm

Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:33 pm
The quote from Adam G is the right illustration of mythic saying they shouldn’t be better at backline.


No it's not. Adam Gershowitz was Lead Character Artist. I don't think he had much input on class/spec balance or how all specs were meant to be played. And by 2011 he wasn't even on EA/Mythic anymore, he moved to Trion.

It is just the personal opinion from an artist about how a class should be played on a game made by a company he doesn't work for anymore.

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Grunbag
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#48 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:57 pm

Penril wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:46 pm
Grunbag wrote: Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:33 pm
The quote from Adam G is the right illustration of mythic saying they shouldn’t be better at backline.


No it's not. Adam Gershowitz was Lead Character Artist. I don't think he had much input on class/spec balance or how all specs were meant to be played. And by 2011 he wasn't even on EA/Mythic anymore, he moved to Trion.

It is just the personal opinion from an artist about how a class should be played on a game made by a company he doesn't work for anymore.

You’re right , just checked the quote was on mythic balance forum in 2009. Also , he isn’t not only art director and he was involved in balance “Adam Gershowitz
Producer - Character Systems
Warhammer Online : Age of Reckoning”

, he seems to be the only dev active on balance forum at this period . It’s not personal opinion , he created most balance review on their balance forum , I’m pretty sure he knew what he was talking about
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ajnin420
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#49 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:27 pm

Just curious... do either of you even have a well geared high rr grace priest?

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nailinthehead
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Re: The real Reason why nobody plays Shieldspec WP/DoK

Post#50 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:41 pm

Honestly if we sticked to the description, trees abilities should be divided like that:
Salvation - melee healing abilities
Grace - Buffs
Wrath - Debuffs

Each tree should be about being in the middle of the fight. If we were to "fix" the WP, we probably had to relate the healing power of melee attacks to number of enemies in short proximity from the WP. Also WP would require much more survivability than it has right now.

The basic problem atm is that if you want to melee heal/buff/debuff you need to hit people, so you need lots of STR what at the current WP armor design cripples its defenses heavily.So either you heal and die quickly or die slower but healing is at very low level because of absorb/parry/block/armor/toughness.

That's why IMHO it would be a solution to make a base level of melee healing go off with the use of abilities and increase it by the damage dealt and number of enemies around. It would be a little bit of mixture of casted and melee heals. In the end it would require rebuilding all trees, limiting casted heals to absolute minimum, get rid of the book and replace it by the shield, redesign the gear and add some more debuffing skills to the wrath tree.

Just my thoughts tho...

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