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Rampage - Need rework

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oaliaen
Posts: 688

Re: Rampage - Need rework

Post#91 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:59 pm

make rampage same as drop da basha ...
Silently we bide our time
Soon we'll pay you back
For all the wrongs you've done our kind
For the stabwounds in our backs

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Penril
Posts: 4445

Re: Rampage - Need rework

Post#92 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:04 pm

oaliaen wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:59 pm
make rampage same as drop da basha ...
Sounds good. Maybe we can call it "Numbing Strike".

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Tesq
Suspended
Posts: 5346

Re: Rampage - Need rework

Post#93 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:09 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:49 pm
Scrilian wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:32 am
Aurandilaz wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:38 pm
Don't think Rampage is "Op", rather very strong. And becoming possibly too strong as more and more Slayers/Choppas finish Invader gear which allows them to reach +70-80 armor pen values - which with combination of Rampage will lead to future imbalances. Considering it's cheap cost at 5pts, possibly limit it to 50% strikethrough, not full 100%.
It isn't always used due to it's Rage cost, but when properly used and combined with very high armor pen values, can be pretty damn powerful.
Choppas keep playing without it, and do ok enough, Slayers also play similarly, even if at times Rampage allows them "easier" gameplay where they do not need to constantly reposition themselves due to enemy parry/block checks.
How about we touch on that pesky monstro arm as well then? I mean future imbalances should consider ever rising levels of armor and bla-bla baseline bla-bla too good :mrgreen:

Joking aside, could anyone post me this full invader WS penetration %? I've seen the new OP pen values thrown around here and there - yet I have serious doubts of anyone actually reaching those outside of RR90+ sets era.
Or being a mad lad and actually spending RR on flat stats, like 34 points for 120 WS :lol: But even then, I assume that the % is not that high, could be wrong here though.

On the side note, Slayer and Choppa are a pain to play in any kind of scenario, be it RvR, groups or solo, at least for me.
The punitive rage mechanic gives too much of a drawback for not much gain(i.e. you have to be red to deal any considerable amount of damage outside of gimmicky lul-yellow builds), but that again, the memories and legends of RR100 slayer rape-groups are somehow still raw among some of you folk, so you probably see this in quite a different light :D

I've thrown around couple of times the idea of applying the rage penalty only to the innate SL/CH stats, but not the gained buffs, like auras, potions, etc. which are currently halved as well.
This's the long awaited QoL change, that would make one consider taking those classes in more setups, make the life a bit easier and not just cause you to melt in 1.5 seconds outside of guard, while smashing your potions+ragedump+detaunt macro :mrgreen:
Yep, Mara will also need to be tuned down, 100% ignore is too much, if one day we want to move away from magic-bomb meta, and start bringing melee and physical dmg to warbands.
Atm I can reach 65% armor pen on Choppa, with +20% from Invader (while losing some Stats), should still be able to hang around 70-80 (though can invest in more Str talis due to 7pc giving better returns than WS talis - or wounds). Just need to farm 7 more forts can quit playing that cancer-PvP, though might just as well burn out before I finish my set...

Then you add in ST/AOE armor debuff Mara/WL debuffing for CH/SL in smallscale and dpsZ/dpsRP in largescale (assuming you bring 2-4 mdps, dpsRP eventually becomes worth picking). So taking into account the 800+ aoe armor debuff or so, effectively looking at 75-90% armor penetrations. Which is AFAIK subtracted from target defensive physical mitigation, say 100% armor from armor tali stack on defensive healers and gear stack on some targets, or maxed at 120-130% on some really armour stacking targets. So a tanky tank with 120% physical mitigation from armor, ends up only with 30% or so armor actually being in effect when the dmg lands. (ofc toughness will at that point mitigate more)
Which isn't actually too far from magical dmg resistances in the end, which are already softcapped at 40%.
[my math might suck at some points, sowwy]

However, you need not fear my Choppa, after all, your tanks can still parry/block my attacks. :P
But Slayers, well, fun times ahead. ;)
exatly this, we know how ended in live mara and sorc vs bw and slayer if we could prevent that another time maybe.

and before somene say we wont have imba sets, should look at magus/engi vs sorc /bw last invader bonus ....
Last edited by Tesq on Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Cimba
Posts: 308

Re: Rampage - Need rework

Post#94 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:09 pm

Spoiler:
Aurandilaz wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:49 pm
Yep, Mara will also need to be tuned down, 100% ignore is too much, if one day we want to move away from magic-bomb meta, and start bringing melee and physical dmg to warbands.
Atm I can reach 65% armor pen on Choppa, with +20% from Invader (while losing some Stats), should still be able to hang around 70-80 (though can invest in more Str talis due to 7pc giving better returns than WS talis - or wounds). Just need to farm 7 more forts can quit playing that cancer-PvP, though might just as well burn out before I finish my set...

Then you add in ST/AOE armor debuff Mara/WL debuffing for CH/SL in smallscale and dpsZ/dpsRP in largescale (assuming you bring 2-4 mdps, dpsRP eventually becomes worth picking). So taking into account the 800+ aoe armor debuff or so, effectively looking at 75-90% armor penetrations. Which is AFAIK subtracted from target defensive physical mitigation, say 100% armor from armor tali stack on defensive healers and gear stack on some targets, or maxed at 120-130% on some really armour stacking targets. So a tanky tank with 120% physical mitigation from armor, ends up only with 30% or so armor actually being in effect when the dmg lands. (ofc toughness will at that point mitigate more)
Which isn't actually too far from magical dmg resistances in the end, which are already softcapped at 40%.
[my math might suck at some points, sowwy]

However, you need not fear my Choppa, after all, your tanks can still parry/block my attacks. :P
But Slayers, well, fun times ahead. ;)
Has anyone actually tested on how the additional armor pen from invader works? Does it add flat on top of what you got through weapon skill? Or is it more akin to marauders piercing bite which works multiplicative?

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1827

Re: Rampage - Need rework

Post#95 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:29 pm

Tested on testers, target tank had 117% physical mitigation, with +84%armor pen, realistic target mitigation was around 47%, with the remaining being able to be explained mostly by Toughness and whatever remains left of the armor after the attackers armor pen is calculated - Choppa hitting on armor stacking Kotb.
It should be flat on top of what you had before.

Cimba
Posts: 308

Re: Rampage - Need rework

Post#96 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:44 pm

Aurandilaz wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:29 pm
Tested on testers, target tank had 117% physical mitigation, with +84%armor pen, realistic target mitigation was around 47%, with the remaining being able to be explained mostly by Toughness and whatever remains left of the armor after the attackers armor pen is calculated - Choppa hitting on armor stacking Kotb.
It should be flat on top of what you had before.
You dont have the damage values lying around by any chance? These percentages are a bit ambiguous.

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1827

Re: Rampage - Need rework

Post#97 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:51 pm

Cimba wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:44 pm
Aurandilaz wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:29 pm
Tested on testers, target tank had 117% physical mitigation, with +84%armor pen, realistic target mitigation was around 47%, with the remaining being able to be explained mostly by Toughness and whatever remains left of the armor after the attackers armor pen is calculated - Choppa hitting on armor stacking Kotb.
It should be flat on top of what you had before.
You dont have the damage values lying around by any chance? These percentages are a bit ambiguous.
Sadly no, atm trying to remember values - might have been 78% mitigation before getting the 7pc invader bonus arm pen, then dropping to ~47% with penetration bonus up. Since the alternatives are multiplier or additive, the multiplier would have to be massive to make such a difference when hitting kotb with 117% armor mitigation. Therefore, leading to it having to be an addition on existing armor pen value. (armor pen in total going over 80%)
But I think you can test these on live servers now, where some Slayers already have 7pc invader. Personally need to grind 2+ more weeks of crappy forts and get farmed several dozen times more by order. :P

edit; hit me in discord, can maybe go check it more on testers

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