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[Feedback] Changes of morale

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Natherul
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#141 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:16 am

Collateral wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:07 am
Natherul wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:21 am
Collateral wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:40 am
Spoiler:
Why look at pumps and drains when you still didn't say what morales should even be doing? Again, you are solving this problem from a wrong angle imo. I still don't see what your idea about morales is. Yea there is that tank morale thread, but that didn't seem to yield any conclusions at all (pretty much like any such thread, there's just too many opinions. And I didn't realize it's ongoing). And then what about other archetypes?

Maybe I am wrong, but I think that the first thing to do is figure out the morales themselves. What should they do? How strong should they be? Who should have what types (i.e. should tanks and healers have damage morales)? You started good with tank morales, but it just seems it stopped dead in its tracks. Morales are a core mechanic of this game, and fiddling around with morale gain, and then drains and pumps can lead to more problems than solutions.

I'm glad you guys are involving the community in this important issue. But I would like you to be more clear about your intentions. Maybe I'm too stupid to realize them if you already mentioned them. In that case sorry if I'm getting boring.
The other archetypes are scheduled one after another, We just started with tanks. As for what morales should do is to be amazing abilities in either offensive, defensive or utilitarian in nature. With the tank morale overhaul we also attempt to make a baseline for what the morales should do in powerscale dependent on what level of morale they are (however this is not as easy as one might think) and other factors such as pumps in the realm. We also strive to make the speccable M4 actually worthwhile as they are a significant investment. Morales should be an ability that feels awesome to use but not something (at least higher levels) that you can weave into each minute of combat.
Thanks for clarification. So if I understand, all archetypes can share those 3 types of morale and you won't be splitting them up, at least not completely? Some morales certainly are awesome while many others aren't, as we all know.

You don't want them to be used every minute (m4s at least), and that's understandable. So how often do you want them do be used? After 2 mins of combat, or 3? Or that's still up to debate? Because combat in this game (talking about rvr) is mostly very short, not considering keeps. And it's especially short if one side is very outnumbered. Now of course it's only natural that the bigger side of equal skill will overpower the weaker one, but what about organized groups? If you set the rate so that you reach the stronger morales in 2 or 3 mins (not considering pumps) those organized groups (warbands) almost certainly won't stand any chance unless every such group is a kiting group waiting to build morales, but in which time another force can come from somewhere else. You played in phalanx warbands so you should understand what I'm talking about. Literally each second counts, and I'm afraid that making morales take so long to build will not only make them virtually unusable (like most m4s already are), but will also make combat a lot more one sided when one realm is decently outnumbered. Of course, that all comes down to what morales will be like, and what certain levels of morale will do.

It's definitely a complicated issue. But personally, I don't have a problem with faster rates. It's about the design of morales, and especially about the unmitigatable damage aspect of offensive morales. I hope you will look into that as well.
When you say those 3 I suppose you mean offensive, defensive and utilitarian? If so no they wont be split (at least thats not the plan right now but we are only on tanks overhaul atm). And as for how often morales can be used it depends on level of morale ofc and if drains and pumps are in play, that said however I feel that m4 should be possible within 2-3 minute mark yes.

The later part of the comment I dont understand the point of. If you mean that organized warbands should have it easier vs a larger force I disagree totally. Ofc they will fair better because they are organized but it should not be considered in balance if you have organized vs pug. If balance is supposed to happen it should be based on equal forces of either pug vs pug or organized vs organized.

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Collateral
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#142 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:41 am

Natherul wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:16 am The later part of the comment I dont understand the point of. If you mean that organized warbands should have it easier vs a larger force I disagree totally. Ofc they will fair better because they are organized but it should not be considered in balance if you have organized vs pug. If balance is supposed to happen it should be based on equal forces of either pug vs pug or organized vs organized.
No of course they shouldn't have it easier, and they don't have it easy. But what I'm trying to say is that they will have it a lot harder if morale gain will be much slower. Zergs happen all the time, let's be honest. And by making morales slower (and without increasing the target cap, that's another topic) you will be forcing those warbands even more into a kiting type and reducing the possibilities (which there aren't many anyway, especially on order). Or worse, you will force them to blob as well, which has happened a lot in the past months, and to me that's just sad.

Maybe instead of reducing morale gain to snail pace you can increase the cooldowns? Is there a possibility for giving individual morales their own cooldowns?

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Natherul
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#143 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:04 am

Collateral wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:41 am
Natherul wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:16 am The later part of the comment I dont understand the point of. If you mean that organized warbands should have it easier vs a larger force I disagree totally. Ofc they will fair better because they are organized but it should not be considered in balance if you have organized vs pug. If balance is supposed to happen it should be based on equal forces of either pug vs pug or organized vs organized.
No of course they shouldn't have it easier, and they don't have it easy. But what I'm trying to say is that they will have it a lot harder if morale gain will be much slower. Zergs happen all the time, let's be honest. And by making morales slower (and without increasing the target cap, that's another topic) you will be forcing those warbands even more into a kiting type and reducing the possibilities (which there aren't many anyway, especially on order). Or worse, you will force them to blob as well, which has happened a lot in the past months, and to me that's just sad.

Maybe instead of reducing morale gain to snail pace you can increase the cooldowns? Is there a possibility for giving individual morales their own cooldowns?
Technically possible but no. Because:
1. it violates an otherwise clear rule of 1 min CD on morale.
2. it should not be a case where someone gets into a fight, BAM morale and then leaves the fight because its over. You fight to get the morale not fight to wait for it to come back.

EDIT:
Also I strongly disagree that morales should be a tool in that way to counter a bigger force for an organized group. The organized group should be careful and take fights they can survive (at least long enough then to use said morales)

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Aurandilaz
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#144 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:39 am

If you actually want people to use M4s and spec for M4s outside from long fort funnel fights, you'd need the natural 36 m/s we had on live. Or way more pumps. Currently self pumps being for sorc/BW, CH/BO, zealot - and most of those don't bother with that considering the pump(or no pump) is enough for M2 bombs (which IMO should probably be raised to M3 due to class having both good dmg, self pump, and bomb M2...)
From my opinion of playing last week, morale gains feel slow. You don't reach barely M2 and very rarely M3 before fight is over. So maybe you use M1 or nothing, doesn't matter, no chance of reaching M4 before 99% of fights (excluding forts) have ended.

So I'd still suggest you bring the natural gain we had on live, and then look at which classes may be too potent with this. Majority of classes not being too OP with slow or fast gains, but certain classes with easy M2s and pumps will be potent. And while earlier someone wrote how WH M4 would be new meta, well, considering how WH is kinda a joke now considered vs other options, maybe having WHs with access to M4 is justified. Heck, maybe even BGs get one day a WB spot despite lacking pump like BO/CH have, so they can also maybe join the morale users group.
So many potential M4 specs, 72 all in all, and yet, it's basically dead game content due to weird slow rates which still don't help PUGs when it comes to fighting organized forces.

mubbl
Posts: 277

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#145 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:25 am

To questions here after reading last pages
1.why does cooldown on morales matter, if the "real" cooldown is much higher due to moral gain rates and pumps(if they will get reduced, which is heavly indicated)?
2.If morals higher then m2 or m3 shell be ever used in normal fights, there must be a way to reach them, average 24v24 is not longer than 1min. 24vs24+ is even shorter. Atleast what i expirenced till now.

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Collateral
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#146 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:25 am

Exactly what aurandilaz said. Slow rates will only increase zergs because staying in blobs reduces your chance of dying, which means higher chance of gaining morale. You can only dream of m4. It's not even about how strong they are. If you can't reach them or the time it takes is not justified, people won't use them. You would have to make them god tier if you want people to try and stay alive long enough to use them (which simply can't happen against zergs as ttk and target cap are so low ).

I understand that you want to balance around 24v24. But it's hard to balance around 24v24 when that hardly ever happens in rvr, lets not kid ourselves. When it comes to zergs, you can throw such balance through the window. I thought that one of the goals of the team is to reduce such blobbing. But these morale changes wont help in my opinion.

Learn2Play
Posts: 10

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#147 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:52 am

Hey,

Seeing that most of the specc'd Morale 4s from the Mastery Trees are underpowered, would it be possible to overhaul the Mastery Tree morale 4s into abilities like you did for the SH Path of Big Bouce'n M4, with say a 5 min CD (like the pocket items were)? Just a thought.

Thanks,
Shampagne
The Original Learn2Play [L2P] Guild.

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Nameless
Posts: 1141

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#148 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:02 pm

I would like to see original moral gain's rates but different cd for each moral lvl.
M1 - 1 min cd
M2 - 2 min cd
M3 - 3 min cd
M4 - 4 min cd

So reaching m4s wont be impossible to be done but thanks to cd m4 wont be spammable each min

Ps cd could be increased to make moral timing even more important
Mostly harmless

K8P & Norn - guild Orz

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peterthepan3
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#149 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 7:28 pm

Half the M1s and M2s in the game are much, much better than the M3s and M4s; you can't take a blanket approach to Morales, and would have to look at each of them individually if you opted for such an approach.

Will reiterate that people need to distinguish between morale gain rates in largescale and smallscale: I see the use of having faster morale gains in largescale as it does help organised WBs in dealing with the blobs, but faster morale gains in smallscale, ie where there are balanced numbers (most of the time) can have completely different effects, so it is important to bear this distinction in mind. This is why I feel that the morale scalar (despite how some may view it) worked in that it differentiated between largescale and smallscale environments; it recognised that the two are different entities, and this is something we must maintain, regardless of what the approach is.
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wonshot
Posts: 1101

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#150 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:00 am

Would it take too much codeing time to seperate moral rates in scenarious, I mean that is already an other beat with double damage buffs and whatever else crazy stuff is resticted to this pvp-playground.

Being within a sc and having 10 or 15moral per sec, and in pve and rvr you keep the normal higher moral tick rate?
Everyone wins?

As for moral unmitigated damage. 24v24 fights happening and morals being the winconditions is mostly for cleaning up the fights before random start adding in. if 36moral per sec was the norm and the damage morals were removed, but instead the aoe cap inreased it wouldnt be as stressful to cleanup your current fights before you get add'ed on by puggies piling up, or next warband come rolling in. I personally prefer my standard class abilties over my moral abilties, but as long as i have no other choise to secure the first fight before the targetcap becomes too much of a beast, moral bombs will be used.
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