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Re: [Feedback] Changes of moral

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:39 am
by Aurandilaz
Natural morale gain was 36 morale per sec on live and in previous RoR version. (this is easy to understand, with M1 costing 360 morale and being up after 10 seconds of combat, M2 720 and 20sec of combat, M3 at 1800 50sec and M4 at 3600 100 seconds.
Then came weird Aza and Torque morale redesigns, which at some point resulted in 10 morale per sec natural gains (or about 0.25x of old natural 36 gain)- at some point stupid fast broken scaler with M2 up in 5 seconds - and later last year autumn some patch gave back the weird scaler that gives 1xnatural gain if 72 enemies nearby + some modifier taking account allies nearby. Now apparently you need that 4 wbs, 96 people to get the natural 36 morale per sec that we had on live. (meaning with O N L Y 48 enemies, you'd gain morales at 0.5 speed - and vs just 1 hostile warband, at 0.25 speed x natural 36)
[all this results in extreme obnoxious morale scalers for PVE with no hostile players detected resulting in shaite like waiting 5-7 mins to get tank M4]
This scaler further caused a massive mess, as every morale pump and drain was on said scaler, with the amount of enemies affecting your pump/drain. Well patch seems to now imply that your pumps no longer are broken and useless because of scaler, but apparently with no mention of drains, we can assume the few drains left are still on scaler (most famous of them the mara drain).
Instead of making morales like the used to be with natural 36 m/s gain, you seem to insist on morales being something that you very slowly build, or require massive zerg warfare to get any M3 M4 reached before fight is over and combat ends. This has naturally weird balance side effects, with the usual M2 + pump classes still being "cool" whereas those who would need M3 or M4 to shine are "too late lol, fights over".

Re: [Feedback] Changes of moral

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:53 pm
by roadkillrobin
Morales are not a side mechanic aside from the normal combat mechanics. It needs to be the correct vallue for the sake of ballance. Doing changes to morale gain affects the net combat ressaults ballance of everything. The game is originally ballnced to be 36M and at a decreased vallue per loss of group members to incentify group play. It's baffeling to me that this mechanic STILL isn't the correct vallue when it's a core combat ballance mechanic.

I understand that some morales are essentially useless and some are much better. But that doesn't mean the delivery system is the problem. The problem have always been the unmitigble damage. Imo it's a fallacy to try change the delivery system as an atempt to fix the damage system. I can understand it from a convenient point of view of having to do much less work however.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of moral

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:43 pm
by Gakin
Can you clarify moral drains ? I think they were affected by scaling before this patch, and how they work now ?

Re: [Feedback] Changes of moral

Posted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:55 pm
by Natherul
Gakin wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 2:43 pm
Can you clarify moral drains ? I think they were affected by scaling before this patch, and how they work now ?
I had to check, they currently use the scalar as well which should be addressed.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of moral

Posted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:35 am
by Tesq
Mah the first impact i had post change was neutral im always been against moral points generating too fast so pre patch and post patch i didn't see any significal change regarding this, what changed the most are my ch moral pump it finally have again a meanig, we can reset engagement in sieges and have a small advantage in moral gain compared to order tanks...... well we are back to m4 tank vs m2 bw which is still not fair but if the aim of all the changes were to both still have a not too fast moral gain while allow the ch/bo tactics or similar to still impact the fight well i feel very confortable right know regarding these 2 points, GJ.

Even in open field the morales build well around m2/3 but only post a first engagement which is what i see fit (speaking 1wb vs 1wb) before pass to the next engagent.

What i dont see fit are external skill balance to these values/changes, for exemple with raze moved to m3 all interrupts had became even more impactfull on your off moral drop. Since you reach those morales later interrupts can be saved / alredy recharged easier for that moment and used against other channeling during a first part of a fight. This mean that free out of nowhere interrupt became very pissing and aggraviate the problem. Im talking about a free aoe interrupt added to sm crushing advance. I know this is not linked directly to the changes but the more the moral gain is slower the more certain counter should be restrcted. Being a tank (compared to engi/wl) the small range is still enough to complete shut randomly (cuz normal self buffing happening here ) with no timing /skill the morales drop .....which again build slower than those 36/s moral gain we had in live. If that interrupt could be changed st and requirind to hit for apply the interrupt this would make this moral gain rate mesh better with channeling morales which imo are the only things not really working well in the actual system; too much time to build and too many counters compared to istant).

While a solution would be aswell move down all raze at m2 i suggest against it.
It is fine as a moral 3 just order random counter is bad and ista morales should not have the same dmg values as channeling ones.

Didn't had the occcasion to test mara moral drain so nothing to tell about that.
Imo they should keep work the same way the gain happening. Both with scaler or both without it. It is require for consistency in counter moral gain.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of moral

Posted: Tue Jul 23, 2019 12:04 pm
by Natherul
updated OP with todays changes, This thread is used as well for feedback on this change.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:06 am
by anarchypark
m1 13
m2 28 ( 15 )
m3 1:11 ( 43 )
m4 2:24 ( 1:13 )
+-1.5 sec by my ping etc.

at last week's patch when it was 12~36
can't say exactly but it felt slower than current 25 version.
with slow morale gains, i could actually play class between morale charges.
instead of waiting m4, i had to use m2/m3 before dying or for critical moments.
it created interesting mix of morales and normal skills.
balanced mix i would say.
m4 is still ultimate but there were room for many happenings before getting m4.

at current 25 morale, with pumps
it's bit too fast.
m2 m3 are flying a lot.

balanced mix of morales and skills are key i think.

skills calling panic button have 1min CD.
valuable buffs have 20~30s CD. detaunt taunt 15s.
most rotations are performed inside 10~20s.
144s is 7+ rotations. maneuver eats rotation chances.
pumps and drains will +-
best scenario is 5~6 rotations before m4.
worst scenario is sitting at m2.

best scenario for m2 is 1~2 rotations. m3 is double.
it's too short. morales interfere normal skills too often, IMO.

back when it was 10, m4 was rare.
but there were scale on pump skills i think.
now it's gone, it's time to test 10 again maybe?
or somewhere between 10~25. 15?

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 7:19 am
by Tesq
It's definetly a bit too fast, imo if you take scaler pre patch before with 1 party vs 1 party and apply a chosen moral pump that average value per sec was perfect to assign just to every.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 8:18 am
by footpatrol2
Still playing around with morale rates huh?


User has been warned for this post. This thread is feedback only and snark remarks wont be tolerated.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Wed Jul 24, 2019 12:00 pm
by wonshot
So just from testing ingame rates being in combat;

A zealot can obtain Focused mind with its selfpump after landing a crit on each of the internal self-pump cooldowns, after 10sec. where as a runepriest will take 28secounds depending on moral-gain gear.

Thats alot of fast resses in 6v6 or groupheal spamming in Warband play.

For a roaming warband perspective and order Bias its looking like this;

With the ammount of selfpumps available on destroside not only do they get more moral bombs ready for turtling(destro tanks with selfpumps compared to none on order), extending 10sec clashes to 30sec clashes with their tank selfpumps or shaman grouppumps, to get a wincondition.

Destro can also better moral-strip with marauder who can do their own moral bomb at 28,8sec
or simply just use match the order wincondition of 10sec M2 on Sorc now

Will provide video examples after tonights run compared to last few week's footage