[Feedback] Changes of morale

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wonshot
Posts: 345

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#161 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:54 am

It is really hard to just focus on the moral rate, as changing this will have a butterfly effect on other aspects. And getting into debates about moral pumps/drains/advantages and whatnot kinda have to be accounted for.

For the moral overhaul, has there been ideas for completly changing how moral ticks work. So its based around Archtype performance instead of just a passive tick rate? Trying to think outside of the box here

So healers are gaining moral for, wait for it. Healing and ressing.
Tanks for mitigating guarddamage, challenging (can maybe add CCin here but might be OTT)
Damage dealers for dealing damage.

Its a crazy idea and a lot of tweeking would be needed, but wold that serve a better perpuse for balancing in both largescale and smallscale. where roles are gaining morals based of their activities.

Also for the potential changes I really hope you have a good selection of knowledgable people ready to chip in, who are not biased (excluding myself) or you might get more loud noise like this: https://imgur.com/a/Len5KC2
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Semi retired & eyeballing RoR for citysieges for the 24v24 fights

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wargrimnir
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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#162 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:23 pm

wonshot wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:54 am
It is really hard to just focus on the moral rate, as changing this will have a butterfly effect on other aspects. And getting into debates about moral pumps/drains/advantages and whatnot kinda have to be accounted for.

For the moral overhaul, has there been ideas for completly changing how moral ticks work. So its based around Archtype performance instead of just a passive tick rate? Trying to think outside of the box here

So healers are gaining moral for, wait for it. Healing and ressing.
Tanks for mitigating guarddamage, challenging (can maybe add CCin here but might be OTT)
Damage dealers for dealing damage.

Its a crazy idea and a lot of tweeking would be needed, but wold that serve a better perpuse for balancing in both largescale and smallscale. where roles are gaining morals based of their activities.

Also for the potential changes I really hope you have a good selection of knowledgeable people ready to chip in, who are not biased (excluding myself) or you might get more loud noise like this: https://imgur.com/a/Len5KC2
Everyone is biased, and our experience having "knowledgeable people" any closer to the process than what we have here on the forums has been questionable every time. If we see good points or interesting ideas, they get noted and discussed later. If we see dumb crap and whiny drivel, it's easily ignored.
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roadkillrobin
Posts: 2714

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#163 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:38 pm

Yeah, pretty much what Wargrimnir said. "Expert community members" is simply an apeal to authority fallacy. Anyone can have good or bad opinions and suggestion nomather their experience level. It's better to simply just discuss it rationally and point out eventual flaws.
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anarchypark
Posts: 1285

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#164 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:22 pm

Collateral wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:40 am
Morales are a core mechanic of this game

no it's not and shouldn't.
because

Collateral wrote:
Wed Aug 07, 2019 8:07 am
Some morales certainly are awesome while many others aren't, as we all know.

it's ultimate skill, not core of game.
think about line scroll shooting game. it has bomb to clear entire screen.
it's not core mechanic of that game neither.
core is skills + ultimate.
same as here.

fast morale is nuclear bomb.
you don't need troopers, tanks, submarines, carriers, jets when the world is on nuclear war.

whatever reasons u have for fast morale, it lead to 1 result.
reducing usage of all the rich skills.
abandoned game contents like ghost mid tier in AoR.

this game provides so many skills.
let them use it.
getting zerged, losing is inevitable in eternal war game.
however dying instantly or dying after every efforts is different.

everything should be in use by escalation mechanic.
that's morale rate.
and slower = better chance for other skills.
21s m1, 210s m4.
SM8, SW7, AM7, WL4, KoBS4, WP7, WH4, SL3
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE6, Ch6, Magi7, Mara6, Ze6, BO3, SH4, Shm5
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2018.10.26)

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footpatrol2
Posts: 1065

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#165 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:51 pm

roadkillrobin wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:52 am
Now, I don't remember the costs for each tier ...
Genisaurus wrote:The morale bar is 3600 points.
You need 360, 720, 1800, and 3600 moral total for each level.

I still stand by the statement in the spoiler.
Spoiler:
The baseline morale gain rate for a full group on the retail server is 36 morale per sec.
In RoR it is 10 m/s in almost all situations.

36 morale per sec is just the baseline.
You could achieve 60 morale per sec if you prioritized morale gain and made use of all the tools available.

We have 24 classes in this game. Each with 3 different and unique spec able morale 4's. Those spec able morale 4's cost 16 spec points to obtain. You have to sacrifice a hybrid spec to take the morale 4. Give up precious spec points that could be used to pick up other abilities in alternating spec lines. That is a MASSIVE cost but the morale 4's can be very strong.

That is 24 x 3 = 72 different morale's.
In addition we have archtype morale's 4's which is another 4 morale's.

That is 72 abilities that cost 16 spec points to use that are taken out of this game by having incorrect morale gain rates.

In addition since the morale gain rate is SO SLOW on RoR baseline morale 3's have a good chance of not even getting used because combat would be over before a morale 3 is achieved.

Morale 1,2,3 are also affected by the morale gain rates.
Thats 24 archtype morale's (m1,m2,m3)
72 racial morale's (m1,m2,m3)
being achieved at the wrong timing.

You are suppose to achieve morale 1 and 2 very early in the engagment, at 20 sec's or under.
Thats a total of 96 abilities occuring at the wrong timing and 76 abilities not being able to be used at all due to slow morale gain rates. That is 172 abilities not working properly due to slow morale gain rates.

That is a lot of abilities to not have working properly.

My proposal
Install the correct morale gain rates for a full group being 36 m/s.
Take off the morale gain scaler's from tactic's so they operate as the tooltip reads.
We had a long conversation on this topic in 2017 which I linked below.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20633

The morale gain rates should be fast enough to justify specing into your morale 4 AND for morale 4's to see regular use. Those spec able morale 4's cost 16 spec points to obtain. You have to sacrifice a hybrid spec to take the morale 4. Give up precious spec points that could be used to pick up other abilities in alternating spec lines. If you can't justify to spec into your morale 4 because the rates are too slow then your RoR morale gain rates are too slow for the server.

Otherwise... you'll have to fundamentally change the spec tree's... allow all classes to have access to all their morale 4's. I don't like that idea. But I haven't liked what RoR has done in a Long Long time.

Alter Fate still doesn't work by the way which has a role in counter morale bomb play.

mubbl
Posts: 152

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Post#166 » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:19 pm

Spoiler:
footpatrol2 wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 3:51 pm
roadkillrobin wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:52 am
Now, I don't remember the costs for each tier ...
Genisaurus wrote:The morale bar is 3600 points.
You need 360, 720, 1800, and 3600 moral total for each level.

I still stand by the statement in the spoiler.
Spoiler:
The baseline morale gain rate for a full group on the retail server is 36 morale per sec.
In RoR it is 10 m/s in almost all situations.

36 morale per sec is just the baseline.
You could achieve 60 morale per sec if you prioritized morale gain and made use of all the tools available.

We have 24 classes in this game. Each with 3 different and unique spec able morale 4's. Those spec able morale 4's cost 16 spec points to obtain. You have to sacrifice a hybrid spec to take the morale 4. Give up precious spec points that could be used to pick up other abilities in alternating spec lines. That is a MASSIVE cost but the morale 4's can be very strong.

That is 24 x 3 = 72 different morale's.
In addition we have archtype morale's 4's which is another 4 morale's.

That is 72 abilities that cost 16 spec points to use that are taken out of this game by having incorrect morale gain rates.

In addition since the morale gain rate is SO SLOW on RoR baseline morale 3's have a good chance of not even getting used because combat would be over before a morale 3 is achieved.

Morale 1,2,3 are also affected by the morale gain rates.
Thats 24 archtype morale's (m1,m2,m3)
72 racial morale's (m1,m2,m3)
being achieved at the wrong timing.

You are suppose to achieve morale 1 and 2 very early in the engagment, at 20 sec's or under.
Thats a total of 96 abilities occuring at the wrong timing and 76 abilities not being able to be used at all due to slow morale gain rates. That is 172 abilities not working properly due to slow morale gain rates.

That is a lot of abilities to not have working properly.

My proposal
Install the correct morale gain rates for a full group being 36 m/s.
Take off the morale gain scaler's from tactic's so they operate as the tooltip reads.
We had a long conversation on this topic in 2017 which I linked below.
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20633

The morale gain rates should be fast enough to justify specing into your morale 4 AND for morale 4's to see regular use. Those spec able morale 4's cost 16 spec points to obtain. You have to sacrifice a hybrid spec to take the morale 4. Give up precious spec points that could be used to pick up other abilities in alternating spec lines. If you can't justify to spec into your morale 4 because the rates are too slow then your RoR morale gain rates are too slow for the server.

Otherwise... you'll have to fundamentally change the spec tree's... allow all classes to have access to all their morale 4's. I don't like that idea. But I haven't liked what RoR has done in a Long Long time.

Alter Fate still doesn't work by the way which has a role in counter morale bomb play.
which brings us how long an average fight take or could take or should take.
my expirience is that you have around 20-30 sec fights, either it ends on moral 2 on order (bw) or moral 3 on destro (bo/dps m2 without moral pump and with modifier). so i dont see any reason, that you can ever justify to go for any moral4,. like you already mentioned or i just missed the next step in game play.
soec wise thats right, but out of my expirence(bo/bg) you dont have global cooldowns for much skills so its not that hard of a drawback

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