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Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:34 pm
by Rydiak
Nameless wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 2:54 pm
Noone fom live times was upset by original moral rates for small-scale and 6v6, no idea why ppl go crazy about that here.
It is even quite opposite, faster moral rates benefits small scale heroes to fight zerg
True, and I have been enjoying actually being able to use M4 in smaller engagements. Maybe we are all just so used to the slow morale-gain in small scale fights that we need more time with the change to get used to it instead.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:43 pm
by wonshot
Warband point of view so far:
I am getting some serious "thousand and one blessings" flashbacks from Live here where 6man bomb groups would fast pump and routate defensive morals to kill entire warbands.

That is, like Ptp3 said, due to some of the really overtuned moral selfpumps + group/friendly pumps scaling very danm well and being unmatched.

Yes some of it can be matched, some of it is just how the realm balance was suppoed to be from the very initial version of the unmirrored game on AoR. But the more the morals are getting mirrored or changed (Sorc having M2, wp having 1000blessings mirror etc) the whole scale is getting titled.

This is some of my paper testings, simply done with friendly help from ror communitymembers and guildies. Just stop watch testings to see how big the imballance can get.
https://imgur.com/a/x0sVUPQ

I was even debating not to post this, in the hopes of our rival Destro guilds would not see this and figure out how to play towards their winconditions.

And before someone else post-count horny comes in claiming order Bias, or that defensive destro-tank morals dont counter BW offensive M2 morals. My main point is that Destro as a realm have pump AND drain advantage no matter how you set the moral per sec, and that in itself is an issue. But when you have BO with a procentage based moral selfpump then it matters how big the moral per second is.

"counter arguement": but raze can be interrupted
Correct! But with how popluar BO is for both casual play, 6v6 id imagine, and organized warband, heck even roleplay warbands. You see Blackorcs everywhere. And with a M3 aoe CC moral damage moral ability you can reach at way too fast rates, either alone or with well functioning class synagy for all brackets, this needs to be mentioned!

For actual feedback. I think the removal of the scalar was a fine move, but the different realm's winconditions are in dire need to be adjusted. Sorc shouldnt have a M2 mirror of BW m2 to give destro a wincondition in warband warfare on the 10sec mark, when they have advantage in drain, displacement, and turtling for M3 already.

Place the moral per second however fits both 6v6 and largescale the best, however make adjustments acordingly to procentive scaling and stacking pumps.

#Edit. Some of this has great potensial for zerg busting or smaller forces dealing with bigger zergs. But that comes down to defensive morals being more accesable, and i think thats a good thing.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:54 pm
by Bozzax
Nothin trumps solarflare and guess how long it takes to build it with 1 AM?

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 9:59 pm
by Glorian
Bozzax wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:54 pm
Nothin trumps solarflare and guess how long it takes to build it with 1 AM?
A little bit longer than a Mara to steal 5% of the Kotbs m4 when it matters.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:31 pm
by Tesq
Spoiler:
wonshot wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 3:43 pm
Warband point of view so far:
I am getting some serious "thousand and one blessings" flashbacks from Live here where 6man bomb groups would fast pump and routate defensive morals to kill entire warbands.

That is, like Ptp3 said, due to some of the really overtuned moral selfpumps + group/friendly pumps scaling very danm well and being unmatched.

Yes some of it can be matched, some of it is just how the realm balance was suppoed to be from the very initial version of the unmirrored game on AoR. But the more the morals are getting mirrored or changed (Sorc having M2, wp having 1000blessings mirror etc) the whole scale is getting titled.

This is some of my paper testings, simply done with friendly help from ror communitymembers and guildies. Just stop watch testings to see how big the imballance can get.
https://imgur.com/a/x0sVUPQ

I was even debating not to post this, in the hopes of our rival Destro guilds would not see this and figure out how to play towards their winconditions.

And before someone else post-count horny comes in claiming order Bias, or that defensive destro-tank morals dont counter BW offensive M2 morals. My main point is that Destro as a realm have pump AND drain advantage no matter how you set the moral per sec, and that in itself is an issue. But when you have BO with a procentage based moral selfpump then it matters how big the moral per second is.

"counter arguement": but raze can be interrupted
Correct! But with how popluar BO is for both casual play, 6v6 id imagine, and organized warband, heck even roleplay warbands. You see Blackorcs everywhere. And with a M3 aoe CC moral damage moral ability you can reach at way too fast rates, either alone or with well functioning class synagy for all brackets, this needs to be mentioned!

For actual feedback. I think the removal of the scalar was a fine move, but the different realm's winconditions are in dire need to be adjusted. Sorc shouldnt have a M2 mirror of BW m2 to give destro a wincondition in warband warfare on the 10sec mark, when they have advantage in drain, displacement, and turtling for M3 already.

Place the moral per second however fits both 6v6 and largescale the best, however make adjustments acordingly to procentive scaling and stacking pumps.

#Edit. Some of this has great potensial for zerg busting or smaller forces dealing with bigger zergs. But that comes down to defensive morals being more accesable, and i think thats a good thing.
"advanatge in drain".......

am + moral pump onto 2h kobs destroyed entier fortress frontline today due moral purge,,,,,,,,,,,,,who have advanatge in morales sy? still babbling about des have an advantage really?

stop pretend order dosent have an advantage in all siege sich (destru does in open field...) and siege sich are what make you win the game..sigh,..... this is getting really dumb, shammy moral pump is not even comparable to am; you need 1 am to pump all teh 2h knight you want end of the story, you need 1 shammy per group which is shitty as set up instead;

2x2h kobs can **** up 18 tanks ; 18!!! do you even know how many wb are those tanks from ? 2.5 warbands morale purged lol

so order need 2 am and 2 kobs to **** up 2.5 wb really??? 4vs 60 total balanced Class efficency.

/Plaude

Please remove the kobs 2h dumb unskilled moral purge from game the same way it has done with the shatter tactic.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:53 pm
by Acidic
One other significant concern with the increased base moral gain is the change in importance of moral pumps and subsequent must have tactics causing players forced even more into cookie cutter builds as the difference becomes more and more significant.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:45 pm
by hphn
It became impossible to kill shammie in open field

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 1:40 am
by anarchypark
isn't zerg bursting 6man case of premade vs pug ?
aren't you all happy addressing pug is not a balance standard ?
and suddenly it's ok when it supports your point of view, how convenient.
compare premade 6man vs premade wb.
leave pug out of here.

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:31 am
by ztil
Acidic wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 10:53 pm
One other significant concern with the increased base moral gain is the change in importance of moral pumps and subsequent must have tactics causing players forced even more into cookie cutter builds as the difference becomes more and more significant.
I might be wrong but I think a reason morale pumps has not been required much lately has been because of the morale scalar Which increased morale gain for everyone in a densely populated area so much that everyone got their morales quickly anyway plus the pump was also affected by scalar somehow which made it useless in small scale. So no need for morale pump in either scenario. With the removal of moral scalar but increase of base rate perhaps morale pump could be useful but still not as important as if base rate was lower.

With removal of Scalar and if the base rate were to be reduced back to 10 but without scalar, Morale Pump should become more important than before because the lower the base rate the more drastic is the increase with morale pump compared to those who doesnt pump morale. So if Im not misstaken a reduced morale gain is what will make morale pump mandatory again. Please correct me if Im wrong.

And if we’re evaluating different levels of base rate I hope we can try 36/s as it was on live as well. Or perhaps we should have started trying on 36 and then slowly going down to find the right level. Now we started on 20-something and everyone who is just against increased base rate by principle will argue that it’s set too high. We risk end up setting it too low and render morale mechanic more or less useless. :?

Re: [Feedback] Changes of morale

Posted: Fri Jul 26, 2019 7:51 am
by ztil
hphn wrote:
Thu Jul 25, 2019 11:45 pm
It became impossible to kill shammie in open field
In what way would increased morale gain make shammie unkillable? The morale abilities themselves still has a 30-60s cool down. Increased morale gain will just give you access to those earlier. Isn’t that as it should be?

Now you get m1 after 14 something seconds and m2 after 28 seconds. Before it was m1 after 36 seconds and m2 after over one minute in a solo situation so you rarely even got the chance to use morales outside of a warband. Correct me if I’m wrong on these time calculations.