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FEEDBACK: AOE cap

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Jeliel80
Posts: 33

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#21 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:35 pm

Played extensively and I must say it's a very good and needed change (as expected).

Damage wise for sure it's no problem
I'd argue maybe that CC is a bit over the top, so maybe that needs some tuning.
Some specific abilities like WP smite and Dok equivalent are a bit crazy too.

On a side note please disable blast potions, it's absolutely impossible to play when dropped and FPS goes to zero.

All in all, the best change in the history of MMORPG :D

Edit: played RR 82 RP in guild raid, as usual.
Last edited by Jeliel80 on Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Uchoo
Posts: 216

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#22 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:29 pm

Did you play with the change? Yes. I played through 4 zones of massive rvr combat, both NA and EU primetime as well as a fort.
Is the change good as it is? No. Absolutely not. There are so many problems with this I don't even know where to begin.

This does not solve the problem you are trying to fix, it exacerbates it. You are giving massive strength to the zerg blob groups and a relative strength boost to uncoordinated or smaller teams playing against them. I think this is well indicated in Bombling's stream.

The game was never designed around this as a blanket change. I'm amazed that a developer would push through a change like this without any thought. DoKs/WP are the only real healer as they can heal 24 people with their channel ability, then Essence Lash to hit 24 people and get a full Essence restore. Why aren't group heals healing the entire warband? Why isn't Immaculate Defense defending the entire warband? The Slayer's Shatter Limbs is hitting everyone, why isn't my ability? Why isn't group cleanse curing 24 people? It takes 4 DoKs to remove one Shatter Limbs.

Magus and Engineer pets absolutely cannot survive the blanket aoe.

One Knight/Chosen can give 24 people Unstoppable for 30 seconds. ANY Tank can root and give 24 people Immovable for 30 seconds.

Every aoe morale ability hitting 24 massively decreases TTK. I get hit by every Reversal of Fortune and I am much more commonly hit with damage morales as a frontline tank.

The gameplay is god-awfully boring. I don't know if you played Warhammer pre-1.2, I'm going to assume no otherwise this change would have never been implemented. People just slog into each other mashing aoe mindlessly until one side dies.

It kills off the viability of entire specs and even some classes in RvR.

It does not solve the problem you were supposedly trying to fix, an effective way to combat a zerg blob. They are strictly stronger and the game is in a place that makes no sense. You said to avoid theorycrafting but it's obvious that some help is needed here. Lowering the aoe cap and increasing TTK would bring you closer to your goal. If a zerg blob bomb warband could only hurt 6 people at a time, this would allow creative thinking and strategy to move back into the meta. Melee could get in and seek key targets; Single target would generally be much more rewarded while not decentivizing bombing much.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome? The biggest trouble I see is another MASSIVE change that is completely contrive and obviously no thought was put into. I don't mean to sound mean here but I really need to be critical. You guys, like any game developers, encounter problems when you throw in these massive changes with no community warning or even some thought put into. Shadow Warrior snap mobility, White Lion pet stat gain just to name a couple of large outliers.

While I will never accept this change as a correct choice, I accept the intent if it was indeed good, but why would you go to 24 and not 9 or 12? Ask anyone with a history on a game balance team, or analytics, or even just in the field of science; Small change > analyze > small change again.
Last edited by Uchoo on Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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criollo
Legacy RR80
Posts: 37

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#23 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:35 pm

It's a good change if you think 6 M4s should 1shot 24players and call it balanced.
Game/classes weren't designed for these changes so better stop creating monsters unless you want to redesign the whole game.

#a_non_zergling_PoV
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kuj0jotar0
Posts: 65

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#24 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:51 pm

Played a lor of rvr since the patch.

My impression is that fights last even less than before, bombing is still the only viable optinon for competitive wbs. A lot of classes are completly useless while others are totally overpowered, now more than ever.

The meta is the same as 2009

Boring

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ssoul
Posts: 33

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#25 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:53 pm

* Did you play with the change?
- Yes, for 2 days. with rp/am/engi

* Is the change good as it is?
- GOOD as it is.

zerg is zerg after the patch. still more than 3 wbs run together and kill some people, lock zones. but this patch gave a small tool to people who against zerg. and insta killing more than a wb with some M4 rarely happens actually. hope this change could lessen mindless blobbing of these days.


* Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
* Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?

- it seems okish with 24 around on damage involved skills. might need to be a bit tuned down on CC and detaunt kind of skills.
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Quillog
Posts: 101

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#26 » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:36 pm

- I played Ch22 PvE and RvR in an organized warband.
- The change is bad.

RvR:
- The clear losers are pugs, while they already had a handicap against organized warbands they now have no chance at all.
- It does not help against zerging at all, Dragonwake tonight was a zergfest until we left to semi ninja Thunder Mountain. https://i.imgur.com/y30V8wK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/o2TaQlW.jpg
- It heavily shifted the funnel defense balance to the attacker side. The defenders are stacked at/near the doors while the ranged attackers can freecast into the choke point while being out of line of sight for the enemy casters. Usually tanks absorb most of the damage, but now dps dies way too fast. 7th Legion usually is a very good defender, tonight we broke them first try, even after being solar flaired.
- Using AoE CC on a whole warband is simply ridiculous.

PvE:
- Chapter 22 PQs are heavily unbalanced right now. Mobs use wide ranged special (Moral) attacks on squishies instead just on Tanks and melees. Not to mention CC. If the change is not reverted they NEED to be rebalanced.
Quilog: Squig Herder | Balver: Shaman | Moragor: Chosen | Drachdon: Marauder | Duzgat: Choppa | Aggerond: Magus | Rodira: Sorceress | Gozug: Black Orc | Lodariel: Disciple of Khain | Whikna: Zealot | Sorelia: Blackguard | Lindriel: Bitch Elf

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Hecksa
Posts: 6

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#27 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:13 am

Have been playing on BW a good amount today.

Generally agree with the positive feedback that I've read - I definitely think the change is a positive step. More specifically, I think from a non-moral, straightforward aoe damage point of view, it's fantastic, which playing BW solo or in pug WBs today has been pretty much all I've tested myself.

I've had to pay a little more attention to positioning since there's no safety in numbers anymore - you can't just stand in among a bunch of other people knowing you'll take greatly reduced damage due to the cap. Personally, I think that's a good thing . If I mess up and end up knocked down right in front of a full warband of enemies charging towards me, I should really end up dead, not sitting there on 50% health because I wasn't hit by most of the AoE.

I think for sure there's things that the cap of 24 is not right for. Smite is one. Morals are definitely another to look at. Also CC and buffs / debuffs in general I'm not quite sure of my feelings around yet. But I'll play more, read other people's thoughts and maybe post again about that. For now, just wanted to say that I think it's a good change, and I've really enjoyed the increased risk and reward so far.

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adapter
Posts: 70

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#28 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:22 am

Increase AoE in Heals from 6 to 24

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Uchoo
Posts: 216

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#29 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:46 am

There's probably 1000 considerations I missed but a few that I would like to point out:

What about the server impact? The server is already struggling with performance at times and it now has exponentially higher traffic to push in and out, manage and redirect; then it has exponentially more math to be doing in any given second.

What about new players coming to the game? For some reason you decided to test this during an x2 event so players are going to go from Tier 1, which is one representation to the game, to T4 where it's an aoe mess and a completely different game. Do you think that audience will stay?
"You're just mad because you're not on the list :^)" -RyanMakara

"They're gonna die if we kill them" - Klev on strategy

"(The strong aoe meta) decimated live population in its first year." - Llondo

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Developer
Posts: 137

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#30 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:13 am

Uchoo wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:46 am
There's probably 1000 considerations I missed but a few that I would like to point out:

What about the server impact? The server is already struggling with performance at times and it now has exponentially higher traffic to push in and out, manage and redirect; then it has exponentially more math to be doing in any given second.
Virtually no impact to performance has been seen by increasing the AOE cap. Just to rule this argument out.

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