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FEEDBACK: AOE cap

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Jeliel80
Posts: 33

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#71 » Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:49 pm

Jeliel80 wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 5:20 pm
I had more time to properly test these changes, so I'll add on what said previously:

Did you play with the change?
Yes, extensively with usual guild WB events

What career did you play with?
RP RR 82+

Is the change good as it is?
I was all about it before, but it requires further iteration, at the moment it's messy

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
I think that for normal damage abilities might be okish, probably need a bit lowering (15 targets?), but for morale (damage and not), CC, drains and utilities it's way too powerful and should be bought back to previous numbers.

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
Yeah, as above, okish on normal dmg, to be reverted on utilities and morales.

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
Yes, Crowd Control abilities (drains, kb, kb, silence, etc.) and morales.

Thanks and take care.
Tested some more and all my previous observations stand, CC (kb and kd), ap drain, morale drains and IMHO even raw morale damage should be reverted to previous cap.
Absolutely over the top atm.

Normal abilities damage 24 cap is good instead, but even a lower size tweaking I wouldn't mind.

Thanks and take care.

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Acidic
Posts: 1224
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Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#72 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:25 pm

Played changes : yes
Played mostly: def BO
Good/Bad idea : Bad just not as bad as my first reaction

General feedback: after players have got used to the change there is a reduction of impact on the field to the 24 cap. But still pug wb are destroyed in seconds when meeting guild warband .
Guild vs Guild (24vs24) warband fights seem a bit more interesting strangely enough
Bomb groups are now much less effective and they do spread more meaning that the fights are more like a fight and more interesting
Zergs form but typically now they form as followers to guild warbands , less evident and a bit easier to deal with using some tactics
CC is ok as this balanced classes in warband better
The cap change has reduced the impact def tanks have in fights as they are now not relevant to “soak” up damage and effectively only do HTL, buff /rebuff , guard and limited cc, so there is a noticeable shift even more to air dps classes but with a twist hint of increased suviability and range

In short probably is in current form fixing the Zerg issue especially with the cc but downgrading defensive classes except cc

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wonshot
Posts: 413

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#73 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:10 pm

Played: Yes.
Classes/Specs/Scale: Brightwizard aoe in 2fg roaming + 24v24 guild vs guild + alliance vs alliance scale.
Meatball 2fg vs pug. Healing WP in pug vs pug. Healing Zealot in pug vs pug. Engineer in pug vs pug. Invader choppa 2fg vs pugs.

I started playing my healing classes to see for myself how the healing would keep up with a limmitation of healing mainly one group where as aoe damage would be able to affect more than a group.
I dont personally think its too bad in a 2-2-2 group setting, as I assume we are still kinda trying to balance towards, right?

A few abilities does seem to either enter and be worth while now where as they were not before. Like Matyrs Blessing Aoe healing for EVERYone within X feet of you. Smite being able to basicly fill your Entire RF bar for endless groupheal spam limmiting your healing output to clobalcooldowns.

As for the aoe damage dealing classes, I am still mainly of the idea that if you can manage to hit 24people within your 20 or 30 standard aoewidth. Then you deserve to hit all of them because collision is a natural "target cap" in a sence.

My own counterarguement to that stand, however, is when abilities can debuff or CC and you can have one person controling a full warband. I think that is too potent, and might need downscaling or finetunining.
Abilities im thinking off here are the following:
Magus+Engineer Landmines with not only the longest range CC but also the longest duration.
Mara aoe drain on their monstro abilities is probably too strong as long as we have morales with unmittigateable damage.
Solar flare is still just on a 9cap, but its time to admit this ability is anti fun and shoundnt be in for either realm.
Zealots Winds of insanity can stop a full M4 funnel push, as one player. Atleast give the last tick of the push a knockback immunity so several zealots cant chain it and potentially a 6man zealot-only troll team can defend a keep by punting order attacks out :lol:

And thats about it. I think if instant AoE(!) morale damage abilities were all turned off, then tanks and healers who would provide mitigation for their groups could battle the stronger incoming damage from a 24aoe cap and it would, maybe, battle out the effect of more aoe presure from standard abilities. Challenges are still warbande wide, but with instant damaging aoe morales out of the picture maybe 1entrance funnels are more about building strong pushing vangaurd groups, and not so much about how much critical mass is stacked on the defenders.

tl:dr
Healing is fine, aoe is fine with the limmitation of 20-30feet, utility and cc is a liiiitle too potentent, and if the devs are up for it, try to disable all aoe morale instant damage for a test to see how funnels play out then.
Bombling BW RR 86 [Seventh Legion]
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300.000 oRvR kills

emiliorv
Posts: 82

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#74 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:04 pm

Is this test still running (aoe cap 24) ??

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adapter
Posts: 70

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#75 » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:12 pm

Did you play with the change?
-Yes

What career did you play with?
-Shaman, Black Orc, Choppa, Squig Herder

Is the change good as it is?
-No, it unbalances the game even more and makes certain Careers to be overpowered.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
-It's a bad change because it does not correlates with reality, i say this because if you throw a handfull of stones to a crowd of people, it will only hit a certain number of targets due to them forming a Front Line, which is what the Role of a Tank is for, protect everyone in the back using their shields and armour to not let flying objects get pass them. It's Physics.
This beeing said, the change from 9 to 24 breaks the Warhammer combat mechanic system.

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
-All abilities must be capped at around 3 to 12 i would suggest.It's Physics.
I add that Melee Careers should hit between 3 to 9 targets (this beeing modified by tactics) and Ranges should also hit between 3 and 9, maybe up to 12 depends on what Skill may be used. It will all depend on if the skill hits in a 360° radius or 180°, also if it's a Magic/Arrow Rain type of ability. The reality aspect of it must always beeing taken in consideration, mechanics should be respected.

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
-Yes, in all areas where Warbands are involved.

I add that not taking in consideration the Healing AoE Cap makes the Role of healers much more difficult and less enjoyable to play.

Jastojan
Posts: 65

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#76 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 3:29 pm

Did you play with the change?
Yes

What career did you play with?
Black Orc (shield and 2h too), Zealot (heal and dps), Marauder, Shaman (heal), Squig Herder (melee mostly)

Is the change good as it is?
No. I wanted to give a chance to a new 24 cap so I tried most of my characters. Answer is NO, absolutely no. As it was mentioned it unbalances the game even more. The strong classes became even stronger and game is much faster (faster dying), more zergy.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
It looks like the whole philosophy of the game is broken now. The system of roles of classes (like tank, healer) doesnt work anymore. Tanks cant do their job, healers cant compete to huge amount of aoe dmg. Battles are fast and result is - you dont need to think about your squad so long... it is much more simple, just NUKE with aoe and try to keep your most important players alive.
The change from 9 to 24 was HUGE step... it was a jump, not astep to be honest. Another thing, for casual solo players it is much more frustrating because there is much bigger chance to be hitted by the aoe now (during siege especialy). The cap should be lowered to max 12 players or back to 9.

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
It is not a good change.

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
I see it as troublesome in every case when there is battle with 10 and more people on each side. Simply almost every battle. Only small scale battles like 6v6 are good, because the impact of the change is not here...

To be honest, I tried to play as much as I could, many many hours. The place for tactical gameplay was very reduced by this change.
Result is now I dont have such a pleasure from playing this game like before. I hoped it will be an awesome change, but no. I did not try to play my sorc because I know that the point of view could be false... sorc is stronger even with 9 aoe cap, why should I check it after this change? To see that I can hit more players? No.

Anyway thank you for your time, thank to all devs for your job to do this awesome game alive. Hope you wil reconsider this aoe cap, but if not, never mind. I have no impact on it, I am just a player.

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wonshot
Posts: 413

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#77 » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:19 pm

What career did you play with?
BW + Chop + Engi

Is the change good as it is?
Good but still need fine tuning imho.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
Yeah I think testing 24 was a good number. Most aoe is limmited by 20feet or 30feet radius.

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
So after the 24aoe cap test was first implimented players were screaming and complaining about this change promoted zerging, but in reality it was the 2x event effect as we often see it. Everyone gets RP-horny and people dismount for anything :roll: The 2x event is long over, and instead we are seeing almost all of the warband guilds during EU primetime on both realms, moving towards a more "lets run by ourselves and see what we can do" approach. So the arguement of this change promotes zerging is out the window, because pug zergs will be formed regardles of what the aoe cap is, as long as there is ramming to be done and zones to be flippin.

The 24aoe cap currently does have some flaws though, I made my list and the guy before and after me will probably have different views depending on playstyle. However from a premade warband point of view this change and it remaining "unpolished" it turned the min/max warband meta into a cheese-meta. Destro running 8morale drain marauders preventing Order from reaching anything higher than M1, and now Order responding with full slayer lineup. Sure it mixes things up, but when the meta just becomes "lets find ways to prevent our enemy from playing" something probably should change.

Funnels and forts are a mess, not only the 24cap but also no restriction on how many can enter now. thats a bigger puzzle but ofc any chokepoints will be an issue with unlimmited players surpassing unhealable critical mass, no matter the aoe cap.

Morale abilities with both CC and Damage attacted to them should probably get the "Swordmaster wings of heaven treatment" its a perfectly fine utility morale without any damage, and it still sees play.
I know and understand how a morale overhaul is already in the works, but the situation right now could really do with some finetuning, atleast:
- Disable Ruin and Destruction BWm2 + Shatter sorc m2(why do they even have this lol)
- Knight no Escape will only do the root same as sorc mastery m4 Paralyzing Nightmares, Blackorc Deafening Blow m3 will only silence and not deal instant aoe damage on top.
- Solarflare is either removed or drains 1200 morale and deals no damage.

Morale drain normale abilities have 9aoe cap, denying a full warband from building higher than M1 in a 20min fight just seems out of this world :roll:

Healing in a 2-2-2 setting is just fine. pugging is rough I assume though.
Tanks still have their largescale identity, they will not directly soak a targetcap and therefore not provide safety in numbers as before (counter zerging improvement!) but with 24aoe cap on challenges, Hold the line and chosen + knight auras they still provide more than enough of a frontline feeling. Plus being able to cast Distracting Bellow from 100 feet on 24players is really really strong now.
Bombling BW RR 86 [Seventh Legion]
https://www.twitch.tv/bomblingtv
300.000 oRvR kills

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