FEEDBACK: AOE cap

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zachary
Posts: 43

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#41 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:43 pm

  • Did you play with the change?
Yes, while sieged in Caledor
  • What career did you play with?
Magus, L37
  • Is the change good as it is?
Maybe.
AoE is way more effect area-denial than it used to be.
OTOH, I think it's caused a dps/heal imbalance. AFAIK there's only
one actual AoE heal (Zealot, Leaping Alterations) and one AoE cleanse
(shaman), with the majority of HoTs and heals being group-based. So if
3 rdps catch a wb with only DoK/shaman healers in their AoE, it'll take
at least 4 healers to counter them (1 per group), and that's presuming
those healers can keep up with the dps. Summary: It's now way easier to
stack rdps effects than it is to stack heal effects. There are several
potential solutions, from making more heals be AoE (or warband?) instead
of group, to capping damage (but not targets) of AoE effects (eg.
Aoe-DD-spell-X does dps of min(players*200, 2400) instead of players*200).
I think the fundamental questions are: How many people should one healer be able to keep up vs one AoE?
Does/should every healer have the tools to do that?
  • Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
Maybe? That's going to be most apparent in small-group vs wb matchups.
wb-vs-wb it seems to have the effect of intensifying the aoe damage,
making ranging/positioning much much much more important. Previously
defending outer door entrance I'd stand slightly to the side but fairly
close to the door - the tanks were soaking teh AoE so I didn't get hit.
Now I can't get anywhere near the door; I have to stand well away or the
aoe will eat me.
  • Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
I didn't notice much change in how often I was CC'd or anything.
  • Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
See above discussion about massive area-denial and inability of healers to keep up.
Xand*r*nius is still trying to Learn To Play

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Zxul
Posts: 422

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#42 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:58 pm

zachary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:43 pm
AFAIK there's only
one actual AoE heal (Zealot, Leaping Alterations) and one AoE cleanse
(shaman), with the majority of HoTs and heals being group-based.
Check dok Khaine's Refreshment heal.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

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LetsYouDie
Posts: 13

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#43 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:02 pm

•Did you play with the change?
Sure and that was awesome!
•What career did you play with?
1. Mara aoe
2. DoK dps\heal
3. Choppa
4. Sorc aoe
5. Welf aoe
6. Shamie heal
7. Zealot dps
8. WL aoe
9. BW
•Is the change good as it is?
It is disgustingly awesome. now fights going more smoother. and now positioning in battle is a first class priority
•Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
+ •Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
24 is too much for:
Squig\Slayer cd incresers,
BW's funnel power,
Mara's ap drain,
AM's tactic for aoe ap drain,
Wind of Insanity from Zealot,
And all damagind m2\m3\m4.
Think 10-12 will fit for it better.
And cap of 6 for morales.
•Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
Keeps floors, in really small areas with pop >100
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Medy
Posts: 1

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#44 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:08 pm

-Did you play with the change?

Yes.

-What career did you play with?

Sorcerer 40/80, Zealot 40/50, DoK 28/34

-Is the change good as it is?

No, it is not.

-Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?

Much too far. Since its out, it seems the ppl are even more zerging than before. You cant even run any longer with ur own wb, because theres just a big blob rolling over u. It might be fun for small scale groups, but for warband against warband its already just boring. Fights are fast over, u dont really need to think about tactic, its just about spamming aoe. Who spams their morales first, wins (most of the time). Wow, f u n, not.

-Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?

Its just not a good change.

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Rockalypse
Database Developer
Posts: 281

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#45 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:27 pm

  • What career did you play with?
DoK/BG
  • Is the change good as it is?
Partly.
  • Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
I think only way to go from here is up, not down. As change is intended to help with zerg killing it does not nail it fully due to simple reason that when zerg fights 1-2 WBs those WBs will be easily covered by all AOE that zerg provides, but from outnumbered standpoint they are not able to cover all zerg with aoe as effective.
  • Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
I'd say that let this patch form new meta over month or so and than it can be told. Right now some abilities, like CCs and debuffs look far more shiny than before but thats not certanly bad thing, may be some debuffing classes will be more desired in WBs, who knows.
  • Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
Anything closequaters, but I feel that it should be challenging to siege and etc. What would actually solve this - indirect approach - give insentive for defenders to leave keep not to loose be it fort or just a zone. May be separate cap for number of aoe siege weapons can be looked at too.

heybaws
Posts: 19

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#46 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:42 am

Did you play with the change?

Yes.

-What career did you play with?

Kotbs/BW

- Is the change good as it is?

Not really: In order to sustain against zerg you were forced to blob previously, to spread damage between players and keep warband alive, new change only make it worse, you can't blob now because its a death sentence, you also cant spread out because you need to utilize several HTL stacks on everyone, you party members should stay in guard range, and if you will spread, then enemy could easily assault your backline directly. But if you playing as a bomb warband you FORCED to blob at one spot, and that's where new changes destroying 1 wb versus zerg completely. This change only makes things worse: you have 2 options how to die.

- Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?

It's obviusly too far by reasons i explained earlier. plus some things like shatter limbs, mara aoe moral drain, aoe knockdown, aoe interrupt, aoe buildtime increase. Zealot can punt a whole warband for 4 times. Some skills are obviously too strong with aoe cap increase.

- Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?

Aoe cap on all abilities should be reverted.

- Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?

Any open space will benefit the zerg.

mybulldozer
Posts: 8

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#47 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:50 am

Played with change with Mara(aoe), Magus, SH.
Pets died almost instantly which nerfed pet classes.
ST classes are being punished from said change as they are frowned on in organized wbs.
From what I observed there was more blobbing in the zones which is not fun.
Being hit by so much aoe is not fun. Killing enemy with so much aoe is so easy it's boring.
I appreciate thinking outside the box with this new change, but this is rewarding the elite bomb wbs,
while punishing the pug wbs. This game is 80%+ pugs and I ask myself, how can this new change be fun.
For me it's not fun.

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Vilhelmina
Posts: 288
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Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#48 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:37 am

Did you play with the change?
Yes

What career did you play with?
Magus

Is the change good as it is?
YES. Positioning yourself well against the blob pays dividends.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
Nope, it feels good for both sides.

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
Fire potions need toning down

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
No

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spiritbull
Posts: 37

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#49 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:02 am

- Did you play with the change?
Yes

- What career did you play with?
Shaman

- Is the change good as it is?
It is AWESOME!
Finally not only numbers matter and organized WB can handle significant numbers of unorganized opponents. Positioning and quck react to the leader's commands is the key now and I feel it right!

Also, there was time since the latest change for RVR meta and RVR gameplay. Without changes everything becomes boring. But now, with the aoe cap change, I bet every guild leader is thinking about optimizing their wb setup.

- Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
It is good as it is.

- Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?

The skills with specific aoe cap not affected by the change should be looked at and balanced as per the current state. The classes without an aoe spec should be rebalanced (from my point of view every class should be given WB useful aoe abilities).
For CC abilities and morales (both CC and damage ones), that's hard to say for the moment. Have not noticed much issues so far. Suggest to monitor for a couple of months.


Many thanks for the patch!

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Collateral
Posts: 1464

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#50 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:19 am

Only played a bit on sorc. Honestly rvr didn't feel much different at all. Zergs were still zergs, still horribly boring gameplay experience. Perhaps I didn't play for long enough. Fort was kinda ok actually. As the defender you can make a difference by being more organized, at least in the first stage. But anyway.

I don't think that the change is bad, but it's the cap size that's the problem. As many people already mentioned, some abilities become extremely powerful (I won't mention them again, you should have an idea by now which ones are too strong). Of course it also makes other abilities that weren't very useful before somewhat useful now. So it's a double edged sword..

Instead of having to change ALL those strong abilites, tactics and morales individually, I would try with a lower cap, of 16-18 perhaps. And those abilities that are really strong like shatter limbs and solar flare should have the original cap of 9 (which solar flare already does, so that's good). Also, choppa and slayer really need that fix for tactics. To me personally the quality of those tactics is questionable anyway, but to each their own. Tho with a cap of 24 they might become good.

All in all I think it's a step in the right direction.
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