FEEDBACK: AOE cap

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carthagerising
Posts: 8

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#51 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 11:15 am

Did you play with the change?
Yes, since the update I have played extensively

What career did you play with?
Chosen (main), Zealot, Marauder

Is the change good as it is?
Hell yes

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
It is good as is, although I could see a small reduction to 20 being acceptable as well but no lower and no higher than 24.

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
I think morales should be capped or at least lowered in the number of possible hits. I think the games real issue comes form moral bombing in many cases and having these abilities hit 24 could be a little too far. I also think that group heals should be very slightly buffed for all healers. Not by a lot by any means but a small increase to help cope with the huge increase in work load healers now face. Again I stress not a huge increase, perhaps only 10% or even less, but just a little something to help with the now wide spread damage incoming.

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?[/list]
the main issue is similar to before, that keeps and forts are crazy hard to attack and something should be considered to make this not quite as bad. These situations were bad before and now can be made almost impossible with the change if the enemy knows what they are doing. Although this is kind of ok, as keeps and forts should by no means be easy to take, the defenders now feel like they have a staggeringly large advantage that perhaps should be brought down just a little. But at the same time, its still made these fights interesting and challenging.


I personally was very shocked this change came through and I am not gonna lie, I thought it would be a disaster. I thought that small groups would run around and just destroy wbs left and right and that wb play would become a hinderance rather than a boon. While this can now happen, a good 6 or 12 man can really ruin a poorly organised wbs day, it has not been as devastating as i thought it might. I mostly run pug wbs and then join my guild wb from time to time. This change has actually been a blast (pun fully intended) and the pugs I run or run with have managed to survive out in the field even due to these changes and people are slowly adapting to them and honestly it will be a real shame if or when this test ends.

the fights are shorter now but not always and honestly I find I am losing the same fights as before, sometimes you pick on the wrong group of dudes and pay heavily for it. But with the increase in blob action going on, its often not the end of the world and the realm as a whole carries on fighting.

Anyway Iv written a wall of text already so wont go on any more but I really have enjoyed this change and hope it remains. It has not completely flipped the tables but it has given more bite to small forces operating in the world and I support small scale being viable as long as it does not end what I view as the core of the game, the wb and mass battles. This change has enhanced all of these styles and will mean people are forced to adapt and become better to avoid getting mowed down by the aoe classes.

Finally I do think that group healing should be boosted very very slightly. Playing a healer, particularly on a fort has increased its work load quite substantially and it would be good to have a very small boost in group healing output to deal with the now huge incoming damage during keeps and fort battles. I strss again, not a giant boost but a slight one just to help in the new meta.

With the changes and the increased pop from the event, the game has become very fun for me. There is regular and intense action going on and the battles look and feel fun to be a part of. Aoes shouldnt have some small cap to them and should be lethal to clustered players. Purple rain is one thing but yellow rain it turns out is also highly addictive.

Thanks for the test and I hope it sticks.

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Yaliskah
King of Nothing
Posts: 1781

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#52 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:56 pm

This is my player feedback.
I mostly agree with Collateral.

Did you play with the change?
Yes, since the update, in ORvR and Fort

What career did you play with?
Black guard, DoK, Warrior Priest

Is the change good as it is?
At some point.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
This is my concern as a player. I see multiple situations :
-When 2 big mass have a confrontation, the result is significantly more bloody, healers being unable to follow the rythm. At some level, it's logical and not necessarily a problem.
-When a big mass have a confrontation with a smaller one, or a single group, it provide some leverage, and even if both are organised result will be played in advance, which is logic too.
-When 2 smallscale groups meet each other, the change has no impact.
-When it comes to funnel in ORvR (keep siege), it could create difficult situation ofc, but there are options.
-When it comes to Fort Phase 3, i think we have an issue ( as playing a football match in a bathroom). This issue was existing before this change and is just amplifies with the change. I guess the problem in this specific case isn't the change but the P3 itself.
So in general, the change is quite good.

However, my concern is more centered on the balance between AoE class vs strict monotarget classes in general. I wonder if expand this limit to 24 don't make monotarget classes/mdps weaker / less viable in time.

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
Fort Phase 3.

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DanielWinner
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Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#53 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:41 pm

Did you play with the change?

Yes, I've been playing it since the update.

What career did you play with?

SW, BW, Sorc, BG. Mostly pugging in WBs.

Is the change good as it is?

Yes, it's fine.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?

Didn't notice or experience any "too far" moments.

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?

The only ability that could be capped has been capped already.

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?

Even in forts I haven't noticed any super-duper CC or OP plays. People still press their buttons poorly and when they blob, they get punished. So, again nothing "over the board" happened.
The only place that may cause trouble is gates choke points but it's not related to the change (it was a horrible place before the change and continues to be it), it's just a poor mechanic of fortresses.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2020

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#54 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:44 pm

  • What career did you play with
    Dps shmy grpd and a tad solo
  • Is the change good as it is?
    I’d test wo cap (24 makes as little sense as 9)
  • Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
    Nupe I think the real test would be dropping it all together (24 help the blob force)
  • Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
    Use ability range to fine tune aoe OP effects not an akward cap. (Cd increasers, morale cc)
  • Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
    Not sure not even organized wbs seem to have adjusted their tactics much YET. If anything I think tougher aoe classes gained from this since clothies cant line up at point blank wo risk. Being glass canon aoe clothie suddenly is a risk reward not as bf reward only bc your tanks could soak all hits
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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Roamy
Posts: 6

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#55 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:45 pm

  • Did you play with the change?
Yes
  • What career did you play with?
Marauder in Bloodlord/invader/Vanquisher gear
  • Is the change good as it is?
No, in fact it feels utterly awful. Although I do understand and sympathize with the intention behind the change, I think it perpetuates the exact opposite result.
  • Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
9 felt infinitely better for me.
  • Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
No, it's bad all over, even when you're winning. And this is from the perspective of the class who arguably got buffed the "most" out of all classes with the aoe change, due to now having access to 24 man knockdown, 24 man Morale and AP drain and much much higher damage.
  • Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
The main thing that is troubling with this test is that it's not, as many people seem to assume, that you're being hit by a maximum of 15 (from 9 to 24) more people. It's that every dps can hit 15 more targets, which exponentially increases the amount of damage going out and coming in when scaled upwards in groups.

As an example, I am a fairly tanky geared up Marauder. Before this patch, even when going up against a full 3-4 warband zerg with just a half or a full warband of our own, I knew that I could "outplay" the zerg by positioning myself in such a way that it was tanks that were taking most of the pressure because generally speaking the first 9 targets would take the most damage.

After several evenings of playing, the experience has become incredibly binary. Either our Pain and Pleasure organized warbands just instantly wipe opposition from the face of the earth due to combined CC and bombs, or I get instantly deleted. And I have 9k wounds, almost 400 initiative, 3.3k armor, with guard and just every defensive ability available. Just instantly from full health to zero. It feels AWFUL, even when you're winning. There's no tactics, it's just a binary "Who nukes first".

It's atrocious, and counterintuitively it just leads to more zerging. Now, when going up against a 2 wb zerg you want to bring at least 2 wb's more so that you can ensure that enough can survive the initial aoe burst carnage that you "win" or just burst them harder. It's mutually assured destruction, and RvR has been even more zergy the past few evenings than I've ever seen it before (which is also partially due to x2 weekend), but it also FEELS infinitely worse. Again, as stated before, I went up against zergs that outnumber my group 2-3 to 1 and still be able to position myself in such a way that I wasn't taken the brunt of the pressure, but now as a melee there's just no way I can survive longer than a second, maybe 2.

A final point, contrary to the previous post about no discernible extra server strain being detected, my average FPS has dropped down to 5-10 fps in big fights, compared to my usual 30-40 that I had before. Literally nothing has changed on my end, this is simply since the patch.

All in all, I very very VERY strongly beseech the devs to revert this test. And again, I appreciate the sentiment and out of the box thinking for the zerg problem, I really do. But this tested change does not work.
Roamy - Marauder cannon fodder with Pain and Pleasure.
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wonshot
Posts: 373

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#56 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:54 pm

Did you play with the change?
Yes. Put in about 10+ in guild organized enviroment(EU prime). And 10+- hours of pugging(NA time)
What career did you play with?
AoE BW / Lowlevel healing WP.
Is the change good as it is?
Yes
Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
Yes, deffo room for finetuning
Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
Morale damaging abilties seems to be the one thing both realms could agree on. Order warbands would want less people affected by Displacements, while Destro would want to see less people affected by damage due to how the two realm's function in clashes. But Raw damaging morales seem to be something both realms could agree on.
Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
Funnel situation with no postern door. Fortress Stage3 bottom floor setup. or Keepsiege 3star def.

First of all I would like to point out, that there is a big difference in how the server-population behaves when there is a 2x event going on, and when its just a normal weekday evening. Players are more keep for adding fights, zerging, basicly obtaining renown when theres a double event ongoing. So the action is affected there after.

That said,
The guild I am in, tried to form the strongest setup known in the Order meta. 6 BW, 1 DPS runie, 1 slayer and run straight into an unorganized "pug zerg". Simply just to test the aoecap-change and test the limmitations. In an open field fights, the zerg would eventually overcome the organization advantage just via the numbers advantage. More players throwing dots, debuffs and damage at you, from all directions and you will eventually go down. So in that sence didnt it really seem to prove that zergbusting is now more available.

But when we tried to run with just 2FG and got chased by same level of unorganized "pug warbands" we could use terrain to our advantage and turn quickly and suprice a chasing bigger force, and use their numbers against them and organization would overcome the numbers. And this was such a refreshing feeling that I must say I am a big fan of this attempted change.

In terms of 24v24 we have had a handful of clashes with FMJ, PnP and Art of War. Some wins, some losses. The gameplay is different but at the same time, also just upscaled more of the same. You could even call it a little bit more "dumbed down" but coordinating CC, morales and manouvering around between frontline and backline is still pretty much the same.

And to be honest, I dont think ive found myself ACTUALLY hitting 24people at once in RvR yet, unless its been all stacked in a doorway. Most of the AoE abilties involved a 30feet wide area, and due to collision fitting that many players, not even counting enemies trying to bomb that stack of enemies, into one area just makes it insanely hard to reach the aoe cap right now. 9aoe cap was honestly too low. Too much safety in numers.

With how Challenge can be applied widely, Smite being able to funnel alot of new-found healing output into a clash, the increased damage-spread on a warband is not unmanageable for an organized warband I find. Unless you fight an organized guildzerg, but should you really be able to fight that? Nah

I am FOR this change!
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Freyadis
Posts: 4

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#57 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 3:49 pm

Did you play with change:
Yes -
PVE and RVR - pug wb's in whichever zone was active.

Career:
Healing DOK / Tinkering Engi


Is it good:
NO - see feedback below

Is it good but too far:
No - the biggest benefits a straight healer DOK brought was the group cleanse,
AOE heals and AOE HOT. Our M3 shield and M4 were useful but not unbalancing.
Now, Khaine's Refreshment is very useful, but from my testing in orvr, keep defense and siege,
it really isn't making much difference. My AOE heal and HOT are still only hitting a max of 6 players, and my cleanse is relatively useless in RVR now.

The morale bombs have been mentioned already, and good points made in several posts, so I won't repeat those.
Tactics haven't flown completely out the window, but nuke first / nuke more / nuke harder is definitely the theme. I've seen several mentions of positioning, but unless I'm out of range of any but my single target heals I'm getting blasted anyway.
And I'm not sure what's causing it, simply because I haven't been able to get a screenshot or decent parse on my combat logs yet, but something is causing my soul essence to drop from full 250 to single digits or 0 without a single cast.

On my engi the changes have also been felt, but again, they're unbalancing. Landmine should definitely be capped to a lower number, or just a flat area with no cap, but relatively small AOE. I should not be able to stop 2 groups with a single landmine.
Lightning rod and shock rod should also not be hitting folks on different floors of the keep but they are.
Turrets also seem to be ignoring intervening objects / LOS limiters. This has been going on already but it seems to be happening more frequently.

Overall, I think the changes were well intentioned but have made it even worse for pugs in general.

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Aethilmar
Posts: 157

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#58 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:37 am

Did you play with the change?
Yes

What career did you play with?
AOE engie, Shieldmaster and WL. Also a little zealot.

Is the change good as it is?
Depends on what you are trying to do.
For zerg busting, yes.
For discouraging the zerg, no.
For increasing fun, well I guess it depends on if you run in a highly-organized WB or not. I think it is overall a malus on fun.

Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
I do not think this will have the long-term effects you are hoping for.

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
Once again I do not think this change will have the long term effects you are hoping for so all need to be capped back to previous values.

Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
Just to amplify on some of the existing concerns, since the ultimate point of the existing gameplay mechanics is to have the full force of both armies (i.e. zergs) meet at a keep and fight it out, the idea of using faster kills by WBs to "zerg bust" seems contradictory. The fact this seems to favor attackers in practice just creates a bigger imbalance where attackers already have a large advantage in "real world" scenarios i.e. 40-60% AAO by the time most sieges start.

Further, "zerg busting" as a goal will ultimately drive down your player base outside of the hard-core guilds. But once their easy kills are gone they will eventually fade out as well (this has happened before, so you can count on it happening again). I believe the goal you are attempting to reach is not having incentives to zerg up. But, as noted, the game goals explicitly incentivize that behavior b/c there is nothing for non-zergs to do once it is siege time.

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ChicagoJoe
Posts: 90

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#59 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:47 pm

Did you play with the change?
Yes
What career did you play with?
RR7X AOE Engi Invader, BW, Slayer

Is the change good as it is?
It seems fine, it impacts both sides, especially with toughness changes that impact DOT. HOW HAS THIS IMPACTED FORT win %?

Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)? Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?
Some cc may need to be nerfed - the interruption/setback abilities on no or low cooldown can make certain abilities OP.

offlinemodus
Posts: 4

Re: FEEDBACK: AOE cap

Post#60 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:17 am

•Did you play with the change?
yes
• What career did you play with?
dok heal sorc aoe
• Is the change good as it is?
no
• Is the change good but too far (as in lower cap to another value but between 9 and 24)?
bomb bw or sorc wb-s(far more order bomb wb-s) hitting 24 Targets and on the heal side you cant counter that
• Is the change good but some abilities needs to be specifically capped (if so what ones?)?
• Are there any specific areas where this becomes especially troublesome?

if you read carefully order love the change and would Keep the aoe cap 24 ofc.
aoe cap should be revert back , maybe Little bit more then 9, but 24 is insane.

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