Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

[Aurandilaz]

(i honestly dont know why we got shatter for sorcs)

Because they enforced a 5s min CD on IW. If they take the M2 away, we need that restriction lifted to have any chance at being competitive with BWs.

Have you seen 8 sorcs with 0s CD on IW mow down 3-5 enemy wbs from 80ft? And that was before AoE cap was raised to 24 targets lol.
Giving Sorc a machine gun and then opening fire from distance before enemy can do anything with frontline taking 700-1200 IW crits per sec from 8 sorcs, melting in 5s, then the next line gets machine gunned and so on...
We had this one time with multiple Sorcs and 0s cd on IW, stand near the north KV keep where there is a rock so you can hit on walls, open fire there on 50 order standing on walls and the walls were clear 10s later, occasional tank still standing in the corpsecarpet.

If you feel like the best AoE dps on Destro is still too weak, I'd maybe recommend some changes;
-make Black Horror useful, say 10s cd but instant cast
-make Chilling Gusts a guaranteed proc, not a proc chance on a DOT which may or may not land in first place
-boost IG maybe to 15% or make it 5-8% but affect whole party+self
-WWS from -20% dmg to maybe -30% - it's not a bad morale at all, considering it can be combined with Challenge+Bellows rotations.

the Shatter is kinda nonsense, or like with BW bombmorale, both should be at M3, not a fast m2 on a class with self pump. (the old argument was that powerful Mara drain cancelled powerful BW m2+pump, but now there is no powerful Order morale drain to counter Sorc m2+pumps...)

[wargrimnir]

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

[Timmitz]

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

We should protect the horse and close this nonsense. Next they will be beating boars to death too... Can't have that...

[Wam]

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

I know you guys get tired of same old stuff, its understandable when alot of it is badly thought out

I am just curious

If when we go back to destro and run some nasty setups and take full advantage of tools like this... and we come across orders best and they have sovereign gear advantage over us and if we manage to shut them out and take advantage of cheese tactics to its fullest

A big If but if we stomp them very hard despite the gear gap, will you guys pay more attention to this tactic/skill combination? I know it's alot of if's, because who is to say we will win and shut them out (because we can lose just like anyone else)... but if we manage too consistently despite the gear gap, it would kinda be a sign of over performing or not? If its not then I look forward to taking full advantage of it and acquiring sovereign on destro side ... just as we have been facing it on order side.

Anyways cheers for telling dev position on this

[wargrimnir]

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

I know you guys get tired of same old stuff, its understandable when alot of it is badly thought out

I am just curious

If when we go back to destro and run some nasty setups and take full advantage of tools like this... and we come across orders best and they have sovereign gear advantage over us and if we manage to shut them out and take advantage of cheese tactics to its fullest

A big If but if we stomp them very hard despite the gear gap, will you guys pay more attention to this tactic/skill combination? I know it's alot of if's, because who is to say we will win and shut them out (because we can lose just like anyone else)... but if we manage too consistently despite the gear gap, it would kinda be a sign of over performing or not? If its not then I look forward to taking full advantage of it and acquiring sovereign on destro side ... just as we have been facing it on order side.

Anyways cheers for telling dev position on this

If, if, if, maybe! I wouldn't go so far to declare the morale system as perfectly entombed in gold to be preserved beyond the end times, but it's certainly a hell of a lot more complex than what needs to be messed with considering it's current functional (if not perfectly balanced) state.

[Illuminati]

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

I know you guys get tired of same old stuff, its understandable when alot of it is badly thought out

I am just curious

If when we go back to destro and run some nasty setups and take full advantage of tools like this... and we come across orders best and they have sovereign gear advantage over us and if we manage to shut them out and take advantage of cheese tactics to its fullest

A big If but if we stomp them very hard despite the gear gap, will you guys pay more attention to this tactic/skill combination? I know it's alot of if's, because who is to say we will win and shut them out (because we can lose just like anyone else)... but if we manage too consistently despite the gear gap, it would kinda be a sign of over performing or not? If its not then I look forward to taking full advantage of it and acquiring sovereign on destro side ... just as we have been facing it on order side.

Anyways cheers for telling dev position on this

I am not sure people are grasping the math involved here in trying to balance the iterations and different compositions possible here. The reality is you will not win every city (I am 24-7). If you took the best Destro group vs the best Order group the loser would come back with a way to win on the next round (i.e. Single target group to disrupt the heal line, etc.). Players may a huge difference as well... see WL balance. You can absolutely see how broken the class is when played by great players and how it further trivializes WHs. Trying to balance just across Melee DPS is hard math.

Kudos to the staff for sticking with the ashes of this game for so long. I would have checked out after the groundhogs day #75767 forum thread.

[Lorsten]

(i honestly dont know why we got shatter for sorcs)

Because they enforced a 5s min CD on IW. If they take the M2 away, we need that restriction lifted to have any chance at being competitive with BWs.

Have you seen 8 sorcs with 0s CD on IW mow down 3-5 enemy wbs from 80ft? And that was before AoE cap was raised to 24 targets lol.
Giving Sorc a machine gun and then opening fire from distance before enemy can do anything with frontline taking 700-1200 IW crits per sec from 8 sorcs, melting in 5s, then the next line gets machine gunned and so on...
We had this one time with multiple Sorcs and 0s cd on IW, stand near the north KV keep where there is a rock so you can hit on walls, open fire there on 50 order standing on walls and the walls were clear 10s later, occasional tank still standing in the corpsecarpet.

If you feel like the best AoE dps on Destro is still too weak, I'd maybe recommend some changes;
-make Black Horror useful, say 10s cd but instant cast
-make Chilling Gusts a guaranteed proc, not a proc chance on a DOT which may or may not land in first place
-boost IG maybe to 15% or make it 5-8% but affect whole party+self
-WWS from -20% dmg to maybe -30% - it's not a bad morale at all, considering it can be combined with Challenge+Bellows rotations.

the Shatter is kinda nonsense, or like with BW bombmorale, both should be at M3, not a fast m2 on a class with self pump. (the old argument was that powerful Mara drain cancelled powerful BW m2+pump, but now there is no powerful Order morale drain to counter Sorc m2+pumps...)

While IW spam with no CD looks clearly OP, in case m2 will be removed sorc clearly need some dmg buff in terms to be competative (Not with BWs, cuz not gonna happen anyway, they are too good).

[Starx]

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

I know you guys get tired of same old stuff, its understandable when alot of it is badly thought out

I am just curious

If when we go back to destro and run some nasty setups and take full advantage of tools like this... and we come across orders best and they have sovereign gear advantage over us and if we manage to shut them out and take advantage of cheese tactics to its fullest

A big If but if we stomp them very hard despite the gear gap, will you guys pay more attention to this tactic/skill combination? I know it's alot of if's, because who is to say we will win and shut them out (because we can lose just like anyone else)... but if we manage too consistently despite the gear gap, it would kinda be a sign of over performing or not? If its not then I look forward to taking full advantage of it and acquiring sovereign on destro side ... just as we have been facing it on order side.

Anyways cheers for telling dev position on this

9/10 cities are terribly one sided stomps, we would need some kind of arena like the 6v6 league or ranked scs but for the 24man scale to get any hard numbers. Beating say phalanx when they are on order and have 12 out of alliance spots and 6 pugs is hardly a "we beat em boys" moment.

[Grognir]

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

Ok at least that give me an answer about your position! Thanks for reading.

[Wam]

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

I know you guys get tired of same old stuff, its understandable when alot of it is badly thought out

I am just curious

If when we go back to destro and run some nasty setups and take full advantage of tools like this... and we come across orders best and they have sovereign gear advantage over us and if we manage to shut them out and take advantage of cheese tactics to its fullest

A big If but if we stomp them very hard despite the gear gap, will you guys pay more attention to this tactic/skill combination? I know it's alot of if's, because who is to say we will win and shut them out (because we can lose just like anyone else)... but if we manage too consistently despite the gear gap, it would kinda be a sign of over performing or not? If its not then I look forward to taking full advantage of it and acquiring sovereign on destro side ... just as we have been facing it on order side.

Anyways cheers for telling dev position on this

If, if, if, maybe! I wouldn't go so far to declare the morale system as perfectly entombed in gold to be preserved beyond the end times, but it's certainly a hell of a lot more complex than what needs to be messed with considering it's current functional (if not perfectly balanced) state.

I understand game is constant state of flux, and I agree its a very delicate issue, thats why i was never big fan of raze change to m3, or shatter added to sorcs ... any change as far reaching ripple effects, too much nerf breaks balance so can understand your preference for status quo whilst working on other things, but there is some merit to the argument which why it gets raised multiple times

you could also make the arguement that morale drain is more overperforming than heal debuffs was, so sometimes its hard to understand why one gets touched and the other does not.