Huge Order/Destro moral unbalance

[teiloh]

You see people with bad logic trying to defend broken balance.

Dest have better morale drain and pump
It is justified because order have better M4
...
so does dead or drained order ever going to get to M4 and use it with dest having better pump and drain? Remember this is in the context of City (per original poster)

but but but order M4 so op!?

The funny thing is that Order doesn't even have better M4s. The BO M4 drains as much as the BW does. It's just Solar Flare ... but they're never going to be able to use that, are they?

Now for incredibly strong M4, the Marauder has two of them which can basically kill anyone doing high damage to them in 2-3 seconds.

[Aerogath]

Somehow this thread bring a certain tank M4 to mind which aoe drains all moral, oh wonder why that not mentioned when talking about drains

Probably because if a Maruader is nearby, you won't be getting M2, much less M4.

Hah lol, seeing it like this, you can blame the devs for not buffing Marauder so every Marauder in Sieges is playing Morale/Ap drainer ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[koinzell]

For the part with AM and Shaman - i can only agree that the morale generation tactics/skills for Shaman seem to me way more fitting for a class that survives through kiting. The role of a morale pumping AM means even more stationary gameplay (->funnel essence vs do somefing useful, no speedproc tactic vs 25 % chance to 30 % speedgain for 5 sec)- while Shaman still keeps his mobility and uses an instant cast skill to morale pump all the party - AM is forced to cast a fragile spell which seems to generate more morale - on a single target but is actually bad to use in combat situations. I really wish there would be a revision to these tactics/skills

I agree 100% one solution will be to balance this tactic or to give the equivalent to AM
Also WHY Energy of Vaul have 8s of cd AND Shaman Fury of Da Green have 5s just give to AM at least the same CD

[koinzell]

For the part with AM and Shaman - i can only agree that the morale generation tactics/skills for Shaman seem to me way more fitting for a class that survives through kiting. The role of a morale pumping AM means even more stationary gameplay (->funnel essence vs do somefing useful, no speedproc tactic vs 25 % chance to 30 % speedgain for 5 sec)- while Shaman still keeps his mobility and uses an instant cast skill to morale pump all the party - AM is forced to cast a fragile spell which seems to generate more morale - on a single target but is actually bad to use in combat situations. I really wish there would be a revision to these tactics/skills

I agree 100% one solution will be to balance this tactic or to give the equivalent to AM
Also WHY Energy of Vaul have 8s of cd AND Shaman Fury of Da Green have 5s just give to AM at least the same CD

[larsulu]

Those last days with my order warband, we had the feeling that our destro opponents were able to get their Moral 2 (at least) much faster than us. It was more particularly obvious during city attack or defense, since you have removed the possibility to build moral against NPC : Some destro warband dropped their M2 in an average estimation of 10s (!) after an impact, while we had to wait approximatively 30s for those still alive to get our M2.

So we investigate deeper this subject, considering tactics and ability impacting moral (and not considering moral itself has the matter is to get them) and here is the picture:



For the “balanced” comparison:

• 2 Destro DPS have a moral drain (Witch Elf, Marauder), and 2 order DPS have a moral drain (Swordmaster and Witch hunter)
• 1 DPS (Withch Elf) have group moral pump, and 1 order DPS has group moral pump (Witch hunter)

And that’s it!

Now see the difference between side:

• 1 Destro healers (shaman) have group moral pump, whereas 1 order heal (Archmage) has a single target moral pump
• 5 Destro characters have a personal moral pump (Zealot, Chosen, Black orc, Sorcerer, squig herder), whereas 2 order DPS have a personal moral pump (Bright Wizard, White Lion)
• 1 destro DPS has a moral block for 5s (Marauder), nothing similar on order side

Speaking only about the heals, the difference is huge all the more as you have removed the AOE moral drain from Rune Priest’s concussive rune. Seriously there is no way we can match a specialized moral warband as we met those days. I strongly recommend all destro to play massively those tactics and abilities to show you that there is a real balancing issue between sides.

You should consider this topic as first priority as it is killing the game especially in Cities.

If you mean wave of terror from Mara is 13 points on brutality tree and cannot be use on monstro stance.
No maras uses this ability.

[Nekkma]

Morale dumps never was exciting gameplay. Playing with a WB was a hundred times more fun before all the AOE nerfs when you could kill your opponents with the regular skills. The wb was a moving ball of aoe death. With the nerfs morale often became the decider in a clash between organised wbs.

With that said, back on live guilds adapted and tried different strategies. I remember Orz running singel target wbs for instance, converging for morale dumps, but otherwise running several ST assist trains. My own guild ran ST wbs as well as mixed aoe/st wbs and it worked just fine up until we where outnumbered by to much as you could not kill fast enough.

[teiloh]

If you mean wave of terror from Mara is 13 points on brutality tree and cannot be use on monstro stance.
No maras uses this ability.

No one uses any of the Order ones because they're not worth it, other than the BWs and maybe the AM's for very niche cases. WL gives you 10 morale/s while SH essentially is 30, and has no drawback. The WH one has an extra requirement and is in a single target line for a single target class, it's vastly, vastly inferior to the Marauder version.

Quantitatively the Order versions are fewer, qualitatively and practically they're even worse.

[Sofong]

hey maras morales drain ap drain wave of terror bla bla bla bla all in 1 package trade for ID+ramgpage deal?

[convexte]

Nobody said about 24t aoe cap, right?Maybe revert 9t aoe cap at least at citys and we will see how it goes?


Also, like it was said, destro have better morale play now.Imagine 4sorc+4mara+4borc morale drop.

14400 pure damage

Uncounterable.Undrainable.Reachable in <30s.Hitting 24 targets.Also BO 5s silence which making BWs useless after morale drop

- "Solar Flare bla bla bla" - counterable by 1 mara who hitting kotbs from behind.Even if he SOLAR FLARED (oh shi) you, you can just wait like 20s to get your m2/m3 back cause with decent maras order cant morale bomb you.
- WH drain - 125 per 10 sec.For example, sorc have selfpump 200 each 3 sec.Simple math.
- "You can spread" - losing your stacked aoe dmg while being drained.
- "BUT RAMPAGE/+15%heal aura/+20% WP heal on defense" - you can look at this ability/tactic tooltips while respawning after being morale bombed, cause none of this can counter proper morale drop.

Ofc you can "kite" destro wb to your respawn, losing all BO's and city while not being killed (oooops eventually they can catch you at the spawn).

I dont like loser mentality and i will fight anyway, but this is ridiculous and obvious for everyone who have eyes.One side have selfpumps+drains+warband class variation, while other side have nothing to counter this and endless BW spam.

Considering how many times we've beaten this horse to death, I suspect the thread will be dead on arrival. By all means enjoy your discussion however.

Oh, ok, ty.

[Lorsten]

Interesting maths. So if we talk in "theorycrafting" way:
BW got self pump, m2, and BEST BY FAR raw aoe dps ingame. They reach m2 in <30 sec and deal, lets see.... 8x1200 = 9600 "pure damage . Uncounterable.Reachable in <30s.Hitting 24 targets".
yeeeeee, lets make it undrainable!
Why ppl who play BW always forget to mention that their raw dps is way superior to sorc, and any other dd ingame, and they bomb better.

Morale drains exist's because its the only counter to mass BW order spam. Mara on RoR already nerfed enough compared to live, where they were on steroids.
Every BW on this forum is 100% sure that they must have better dmg AND their realm should be even in terms of morale play, which was not the case on live server, for a reason.
Dont know why this sub-forum even exist. Last thread which actually made any sense was tanks morale overhaul, sadly it seems abandoned.