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New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

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wargrimnir
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Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#51 » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:16 pm

We implemented a VERY mild 5 minute interval between queue pops to gather players and attempt matchmaking. It was largely rebuked by the community, as everyone seems to prefer having instant, or near-instant pops without all the hassle and drama of sorting out classes. Essentially the default queue just waits until 6 people on each side are in the queue at once, and then it starts a scenario and fills in the rest as it's loading up.

Solo ranked scenarios are the only place that has a forced archtype queue. However, it's typically very competitive, and I doubt that would result in a fun play session for people concerned with solo queuing in general.

We COULD re-implement matchmaking for more scenario brackets. It would result in the same feedback. A hard 5 minute wait would still be needed to populate and sort players into "even" matches. Even with that, it would still be limited to the relatively small player population, and you're likely going to be facing the same groups that win consistently due to many other factors.

The problem you're dealing with is a sense of fairness, and there really isn't fairness in PvP. The things that you can do to improve your chance to win has nothing to do with queues, and everything to do with how you prepare for the ruleset you're walking into.

Prepare accordingly. Get the best gear you can, with the best talismans, and the best potions. Group up with the classes you need to round out a functional comp. Get on voice and coordinate your strategy and line of attack. Call targets, assist, swap guard, heal, kite, peel, etc etc etc. If other people can do all that, then so can you. If other people have the ability to do that, they're certainly going to and they will win matches consistently against players who do not queue at the same level.
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R3xz
Posts: 103

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#52 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:10 am

I can live with that, and well said on the last half. It's not a huge problem for me personally.

If I wanted to be really nitpicky, I would say that even with a coordinated team, if you're facing a coordinated team that has an advantage over you via level/ability/stat, then you're still at a significant disadvantage.

Realistically, both sides will face the same issue with uneven teams. The reality is that coordinated play happen much more commonly at the highest tier, and that the vast majority of T2/T3 scenario is just a buncha randos pugging, so it's largely a gamble what level of "fairness" you will encounter in a game... and if you happen to play at a certain timezone/hours where you're pitted against the stronger enemy (both in term of stat/lvl and/or skill/coordination) then you''ll probably have a negative experience and maybe complain about it in chat/discord/forum. That's what it seem like to me anyway, as I see complaints about the same thing from destro and order players about fairness.

Realistically, you can even your odds in the gamble by having coordination and preparation like you said, but very few players sub T4 will put in that level of effort especially if they plan to pug their way up to T4. That's just the reality most people should expect in T2/T3 imo.

Ruscour
Posts: 54

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#53 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 3:08 am

No matchmaking is fine, and none of this is a necessity at all, it's just quality of life. Obviously if you were well prepared and coordinated you're going to have a good time regardless of level difference.

If there is the playerbase to support quick queues for it however, splitting T2 and T3 SCs seems like a no-brainer to me.

The downsides are having potentially longer queue times (I don't have the numbers, the staff probably do, so perhaps the numbers I expect don't match the reality) and making it so that T2 and T3 players can't queue together. Aside from that, it makes fairer games where you're not struggling to deal with someone 20 ranks higher.

It's not really about being able to win and succeed, it's about having a higher chance to have a fair and enjoyable game on average, with potentially little downside.
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mytreds
Posts: 177

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#54 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:24 am

I think a good source that details where and when to get gear as you are leveling towards 40 would do wonders for those who are trying to figure it out but feel like a blind person in a dark room.

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kmark101
Posts: 482

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#55 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:44 am

If you grind it out then you will have the upper hand at lvl 37 and above. Here is some hint to have more fun: get to that level as fast as possible using all game modes (PQ, pve, etc..) and then purchase the -75% xp scroll from any quartermaster for 30 silver that lasts for 1 hour... then que to scenarios and rule all, rake up on renown like no tomorrow while winning most of your games like a King, without hitting the lvl 40 bracket for a long time or until you are ready.
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Wdova
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Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#56 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:59 am

T2,T3 scenarios are dominated by side which has more lvl 38/39 characters who just vaporizing enemy players and bolster does not play much role here.

Entering t2,t3,t4 zones at level 16 is truly paintful no doubt. Ideal is to be part of guild/alliance prepade warbands and parties. Healers and tank have advantage here since they are always wanted even on lower levels.

I am thinking about solution by 2 options.

1) separate t2,t3 zones from t4 and merge them with level limit 16-35.( these ppl could still enter t4 at own risk to be farmed by rr 80 premades), but lvl 36 + couldnt enter t2/3. We have 3000+ ppl online now low population in these middle tiers shouldnt be an issue and if so, ppl could just enter t4 for action

2) by hiting level 16 you automaticaly hit level 40/rr40. You get all skills, morales, tactic slots and 40 renown points to spend. Ye Your first gear for a while will be the green one, but annihilator or conqeror gear are fast to gather.
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EsthelielSunfury
Posts: 110

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#57 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 11:11 am

wargrimnir wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:16 pm We implemented a VERY mild 5 minute interval between queue pops to gather players and attempt matchmaking. It was largely rebuked by the community, as everyone seems to prefer having instant, or near-instant pops without all the hassle and drama of sorting out classes. Essentially the default queue just waits until 6 people on each side are in the queue at once, and then it starts a scenario and fills in the rest as it's loading up.

Solo ranked scenarios are the only place that has a forced archtype queue. However, it's typically very competitive, and I doubt that would result in a fun play session for people concerned with solo queuing in general.

We COULD re-implement matchmaking for more scenario brackets. It would result in the same feedback. A hard 5 minute wait would still be needed to populate and sort players into "even" matches. Even with that, it would still be limited to the relatively small player population, and you're likely going to be facing the same groups that win consistently due to many other factors.

The problem you're dealing with is a sense of fairness, and there really isn't fairness in PvP. The things that you can do to improve your chance to win has nothing to do with queues, and everything to do with how you prepare for the ruleset you're walking into.

Prepare accordingly. Get the best gear you can, with the best talismans, and the best potions. Group up with the classes you need to round out a functional comp. Get on voice and coordinate your strategy and line of attack. Call targets, assist, swap guard, heal, kite, peel, etc etc etc. If other people can do all that, then so can you. If other people have the ability to do that, they're certainly going to and they will win matches consistently against players who do not queue at the same level.
That's good to know, and personally I would agree with the feedback you got for it - scenarios, as far as I can tell for now, have no ranking whatsoever and no penalties for the losing side unless you absolutely got trashed (which does happen every week or so), which means you still get exp, get emblems to purchase gear before you can equip it even and renown too. For me, I would prefer queue times being more favorable. If there was a rating implemented by the developers, and that rating carried into rank 40? Yes, I would favor the matchmaker instead of the queue times, but as it stands now - get in there and play. It sucks doing no damage to 37+ players (tanks mostly), I've just learned to ignore them altogether and go after healers.

Sulorie
Posts: 7219

Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#58 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 12:12 pm

Wdova wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 9:59 am T2,T3 scenarios are dominated by side which has more lvl 38/39 characters who just vaporizing enemy players and bolster does not play much role here.

Entering t2,t3,t4 zones at level 16 is truly paintful no doubt. Ideal is to be part of guild/alliance prepade warbands and parties. Healers and tank have advantage here since they are always wanted even on lower levels.

I am thinking about solution by 2 options.

1) separate t2,t3 zones from t4 and merge them with level limit 16-35.( these ppl could still enter t4 at own risk to be farmed by rr 80 premades), but lvl 36 + couldnt enter t2/3. We have 3000+ ppl online now low population in these middle tiers shouldnt be an issue and if so, ppl could just enter t4 for action

2) by hiting level 16 you automaticaly hit level 40/rr40. You get all skills, morales, tactic slots and 40 renown points to spend. Ye Your first gear for a while will be the green one, but annihilator or conqeror gear are fast to gather.
This is not true at all in my experience leveling any archtype through midtier only by pvp(mostly sc). Those r36+ are in general weaker than rank 30 players, because they have no bolster and devastator/duelist set is for most classes better than anni/merc.
Mayhem is better on some classes as well and due to lower rank requirement uses an even bigger bolster.
It all boils down to using talismans and not the crap +3 ones some ppl get as reward for pve quests.
At least with lvl 29/30 ppl can spec an entire mastery up to the most used skills. Even earlier they have a good enough skill set to do their job, no matter how high the enemy level is.
With proper assist you kill any ranked enemy and survive those with appropriate support e.g. healers and tanks.
People get melted because they a) have no support b) have bad team setup due to random solo queue c) are undergeared without talismans (for rr29 armor set and higher it should be at least blue talismans, before this green with the correct rank are ok) and finally d) individual lack of knowledge, something totally normal for new players.
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Wdova
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Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#59 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:14 pm

My expirience is than different. All proper played lvl 36+ toping scenarios by dmg and kills or healing done. If 2 of this high level dpsers assisting(example coppa+mara) target and his guard go down so fast that single healer is unable to keep them alive. T2/t3 is 95% about pugs. "PROPER" geared and speced players are only the veteran ones who play this game for some times. New comers run in t1 gear even on lvl 30s.
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Ghostwalker
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Re: New player experience and the ridiculously unfair 16-40 PvP bracket.

Post#60 » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:42 pm

mytreds wrote: Tue Mar 24, 2020 4:24 am I think a good source that details where and when to get gear as you are leveling towards 40 would do wonders for those who are trying to figure it out but feel like a blind person in a dark room.
You mean something like https://wiki.returnofreckoning.com/inde ... R_%26_PvE)

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