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hippyia
Posts: 19

Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK that some skills seem a sup tank

Post#11 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:34 pm

betozg wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 6:26 pm
You stacking toughness or wounds is your choice, your raw damage scales off of str, so if you want to see increased healing then build more str. You are completely capable of going for a more DPS orientated build and performing fine.


For general pug SC and city play, divine strike could do with a slight increase to the range on the two additional hits. 30 feet is way to extreme, a change to 15ft would probably suffice. Divine strike has the capability to heal more than radiance, for less ap cost which is huge for your spammable heal, and it should be encouraged to use better positioning and targeting to achieve that possibility with 3 hits each time. In organized 6v6 the range of divine strike is completely fine and it is rare you do not hit three people, very rare.

This was 100% a buff to Grace wp. Its crazy how people do not see this, the spec was already strong if built correctly.

Grace is performing extremely well in 6v6 if you partially set your group up for it. So im regards to the 6v6 meta, it has its place for sure.

Stacking toughness or wounds wasn't really a choice, it was necesary considering the heavy focus you ALWAYS get as a WP in the frontlines, as simple as this, "a dead WP can't heal", the best WP grace guide said this and it was right (I know the author of that guide propoused this update which is a bit weird to me)

About divine strike range, I was talking about healing range, because healing to 10 feets is close to useless, you always heal only yourself most of the time, and you heal yourself more (and also others) with sigmar radiance, but yes, 15 feet range for the extra hits would be useful too, 95% of the time is better to use sigmar radiance than the new divine strike, so whats the pont of divine strike?

I dont use 6 vs 6 as a reference for anything because its just a tiny part of the game and not relevant at all, you cant end-gear yourself doing ranked, I know grace is great at ranked even before this "buff"

Are you really a grace WP? I mean, are YOU really testing these changes? (and if you are, do you have SOV already?) because i am, I always beign grace, only switched to salvation because I was tired of people blaming me for losing a city and because of invader set... I tested several hours in scenarios and my performance is a bit worst than before update, yes sigmar radiance can heal more at the cost of survavility, but im not sure if its worth it... it wasnt uncommon to me to be top healer or at least top 3 in scenarios (because yes, I know how to play), now after update, is definitely harder, but i ll keep testing anyway... Sor far, im pretty sure divine strike needs more Healing range to be useful.

Despite what you said, Grace is very far from meta, thats a fact, not an opinion, and is not my intention that it becomes meta but at least more viable in RvR and City, which is not. We both agree is great at ranked, but even there, just check the 6 vs 6 leaderboard, 2 WP at top are salvation, the third is grace.

Testing RR76 full opressor about 1000 str
It literally was a choice.

You decided to build insanely tank and have mediocore heals then complain about said heals. It was not necessary if you positioned correctly and didnt just stand in the melee train like most pug players. You mean the only grace WP guide? Yes it has great information and Rydiak has done alot for the Grace WP, i would not take anything away from him and the work he has put into the class and promoting it, but just because he has put out the ONLY guide does not mean that is the only way to play it.

Why would you increase the healing range of it? Just use your keybindings, or your mouse to target the people who actually need healing instead of relying on divine radiance to do your job for you. Divine strike has higher healing potential than Radiance. ontop of that it effects ALL allies, not just your party. It is down to YOU to heal the correct targets to maximize it even more. Stop asking for a crutch to skill by increasing the heal range.

"you always heal only yourself most of the time" That is incorrect and literally sums up your issue. If you are just healing yourself all the time and not actually targeting people correctly with divine strike, then you're just bad. you should not be rewarded for playing badly.

" I dont use 6 vs 6 as a reference for anything because its just a tiny part of the game and not relevant at all, you cant end-gear yourself doing ranked, I know grace is great at ranked even before this "buff""

How is 6v6 not relevant? This is where you use your classes abilities to its full potential against like minded enemies to win, explain how an increase/decrease to you potential healing is not relevant? i'll wait.

Oh yeah, im testing this changes extensively. it seems like you're not for sure though. And yes i am currently playing grace, i'm pretty sure i'm the only one at the moment running in ranked 6v6(and winning).

Why would i go for the sov set? i actually want to do strong single targeting healing and okay group healing. i'm running a warlord mix.

Stick to your narrow minded ways and call buffs, nerfs because you simply cannot perform well and hide behind stacking toughness and wounds.

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betozg
Posts: 50
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Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#12 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:28 pm

" insanely tanky" LOL compared to what?, wp cant go "insalnly tanky", just decent compared to a real tanks

keybinding won't make you heal 5 targets with one hit or do they? not even 2 targets that are 20 feet from you and both NEED to be healed... oh but why you would use sigmar radiance!!! dont you dare, that ability is for noobs!!!!, it does not requiere skill at all! thats pathetic! :roll:

and again, despite what you said, Grace is not meta, because im sure all wp grace out there are noobs or just suck, right? :roll:

anyway, I won't bother to answer you again because I know what kind of player you are. I know the kind of "Im so over everyone else" BS that you will keep bringing as a ridiculous and subjective "arguments".

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Rydiak
Posts: 420

Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#13 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:30 pm

betozg, the numbers were tuned so that if you have at least Mercenary-level gear you will have an increase to the base heal of Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence. A bug was discovered involving absorbs and guard that also negatively affected the base heal of Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence, causing the heal amount to be drastically lower than intended. I would highly recommend testing Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence again post-hotfix.

While I certainly espouse the importance of being tanky enough to not insta-die in melee combat, there are means you can take to improve the output of your heals. Fortunately with the recent changes, players are actually rewarded for trying out new builds involving increased Strength/Melee Power/Crit.

So long as your Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence can hit a Target Dummy for at least 500 damage, the changes to the ability will be a buff.
Rydiak/WP/85 - "That Grace WP"

Interested in Grace, but don't know where to start? Check out my Grace guide!

Try my Google Sheets-based RoR Damage Calculator!
Updated 08/13/20

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betozg
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Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#14 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:37 pm

Rydiak wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:30 pm
betozg, the numbers were tuned so that if you have at least Mercenary-level gear you will have an increase to the base heal of Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence. A bug was discovered involving absorbs and guard that also negatively affected the base heal of Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence, causing the heal amount to be drastically lower than intended. I would highly recommend testing Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence again post-hotfix.

While I certainly espouse the importance of being tanky enough to not insta-die in melee combat, there are means you can take to improve the output of your heals. Fortunately with the recent changes, players are actually rewarded for trying out new builds involving increased Strength/Melee Power/Crit.

So long as your Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence can hit a Target Dummy for at least 500 damage, the changes to the ability will be a buff.
Yes! thanks Rydiak, I tested today and im seeing big numbers now, sigmar radiance is preforming way better than before hotfix! :D

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Rydiak
Posts: 420

Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#15 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:41 pm

Excellent! I am happy to hear that. It was a nasty bug that affected far more than just Sigmar's Radiance/Transfer Essence, but I don't think it would have ever been noticed in the spam of the combat log without us specifically tracking Sigmar's Radiance heals after the changes and making sure everything was working properly.
Rydiak/WP/85 - "That Grace WP"

Interested in Grace, but don't know where to start? Check out my Grace guide!

Try my Google Sheets-based RoR Damage Calculator!
Updated 08/13/20

Bonus RoR Calculations Sheet

uanaka
Posts: 173

Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#16 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:59 pm

DroolingLion wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:45 pm
betozg wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:19 pm
"Testing RR76 full opressor about 1000 str" did you missed this??? why the hell im going to use willpower gear with grace? :D

*Update... Yes!, damage is definitely higher now after hotfix, Im seeing big numbers now!

But I still think divine strike could use a bit more healing range (15-20 feet), otherwise people needs to be really really close to you
Because, you can put the tactic for increased base heal for sigmar radiance, and it would base heal like 450 for entire group, with 100 str. Put everything into heal crit/Willpower and some defenses, You use the base heals from Sigmar radiance to sustain your group and your Righteous Fury at the same time. This was better before tactic for extra RF went from 15 to 10. But I was using Vanquisher gear, shield, defensive Genesis, all armor talismans stacked. about 750 willpower, 20% heal crit, tactics: 1:Absorb on heal crit. 2: AOE detaunt. 3: Discipline(Willpower) 4: increase base heal for Sigmar Radiance. You also use the "Sacrifice" ability, which has increased base heal just because you spec all the way into shield tree. So you get tons of base heal, which all ignore heal debuffs, while you barely have 100 strength.

That was an extremely effective spec, a bit lackluster VS certain team comps, but for the most part, I could easily outheal 90% of healers with that shield spec. Your damage is not there, but it gives you the freedom of healing with melee and casting, along with the added utility of ignoring heal debuffs with the melee heals/Sacrifice. IDK how this spec will fair now, but we shall see.
I've run something similar, but I would instead wear my strength/shield gear instead. Although my willpower was lower, I would rely on proccing exalted defenses to boost up my salvation heals. The tactics I would use were Exalted Defenses, Discipline, Grace of Sigmar, last tactic is personal preference. With the new changes here, you'll end up having higher base healing with sigmar radiance, while still maintaining reasonable healing with your hots until you can find a good target to smack on for sigmar radiance. Nothing meta defining or necessarily optimal, but was fun to mess around with.

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betozg
Posts: 50
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Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#17 » Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:23 pm

uanaka wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:59 pm
DroolingLion wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:45 pm
betozg wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 7:19 pm
"Testing RR76 full opressor about 1000 str" did you missed this??? why the hell im going to use willpower gear with grace? :D

*Update... Yes!, damage is definitely higher now after hotfix, Im seeing big numbers now!

But I still think divine strike could use a bit more healing range (15-20 feet), otherwise people needs to be really really close to you
Because, you can put the tactic for increased base heal for sigmar radiance, and it would base heal like 450 for entire group, with 100 str. Put everything into heal crit/Willpower and some defenses, You use the base heals from Sigmar radiance to sustain your group and your Righteous Fury at the same time. This was better before tactic for extra RF went from 15 to 10. But I was using Vanquisher gear, shield, defensive Genesis, all armor talismans stacked. about 750 willpower, 20% heal crit, tactics: 1:Absorb on heal crit. 2: AOE detaunt. 3: Discipline(Willpower) 4: increase base heal for Sigmar Radiance. You also use the "Sacrifice" ability, which has increased base heal just because you spec all the way into shield tree. So you get tons of base heal, which all ignore heal debuffs, while you barely have 100 strength.

That was an extremely effective spec, a bit lackluster VS certain team comps, but for the most part, I could easily outheal 90% of healers with that shield spec. Your damage is not there, but it gives you the freedom of healing with melee and casting, along with the added utility of ignoring heal debuffs with the melee heals/Sacrifice. IDK how this spec will fair now, but we shall see.
I've run something similar, but I would instead wear my strength/shield gear instead. Although my willpower was lower, I would rely on proccing exalted defenses to boost up my salvation heals. The tactics I would use were Exalted Defenses, Discipline, Grace of Sigmar, last tactic is personal preference. With the new changes here, you'll end up having higher base healing with sigmar radiance, while still maintaining reasonable healing with your hots until you can find a good target to smack on for sigmar radiance. Nothing meta defining or necessarily optimal, but was fun to mess around with.
Both definitely sounds interesting builds to me, sadly I didnt have the chance to test them before this update, but perhaps they are still working and viable, I might try them and see, but for now Ill keep testing Str builds

Martingale
Posts: 9

Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#18 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 2:00 am

DroolingLion wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:57 pm
betozg wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 9:23 pm
uanaka wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:59 pm


I've run something similar, but I would instead wear my strength/shield gear instead. Although my willpower was lower, I would rely on proccing exalted defenses to boost up my salvation heals. The tactics I would use were Exalted Defenses, Discipline, Grace of Sigmar, last tactic is personal preference. With the new changes here, you'll end up having higher base healing with sigmar radiance, while still maintaining reasonable healing with your hots until you can find a good target to smack on for sigmar radiance. Nothing meta defining or necessarily optimal, but was fun to mess around with.
Both definitely sounds interesting builds to me, sadly I didnt have the chance to test them before this update, but perhaps they are still working and viable, I might try them and see, but for now Ill keep testing Str builds
Yea they are interesting & fun to play, especially because it's a fresh change from standard Salvation, or standard shield spec. I literally just use my healing gear, Vanquisher, with armor talismans stacked, defensive genesis. I barely changed anything from my regular healing spec, i was just frontlines instead of backlines Lol extremely tanky, but still outhealing 90% of healers. I'll have to check it out, and maybe test a few different variations, but I think they took away the increased base heal for sigmar radiance, and i think even the base heal altogether. Since a good majority of your heals/sustain came from using Sigmar radiance. It was a 450 group heal, which regen 40 RF. It was a 2 birds 1 stone ability, and it really was the backbone to the spec. But there is probably another way you can go about it, and i'll let you know if I find one. I know Sacrifice was basically untouched, but they gave the other channel an absorb, So i'm definately gana fiddle with it all.
I was using willpower grace as well. Everyone's going on and on about how sigmar's radiance is better since it scales for 85% damage pre mitigation, however for willpower grace this has little benefit. Combined with the 50% mitigatable damage component, overall it does not seem to be able to offset the removal of base heal.

I don't think there was a strict consensus on how to play grace pre patch, however post patch it seems like strength grace is the way to go. To be fair, once I switched gear/tactics strength grace seems to be fuctioning fairly well with the new changes.

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kam19080
Posts: 90

Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#19 » Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:22 am

remind: weapon skill for sigma radiance

kam19080
Posts: 90

Re: For Grace WP and Sacrifice DOK

Post#20 » Tue May 05, 2020 9:03 am

The positioning of shield WP and DOK is a sub-tank + sub-heal

stacking str seems a joke for a defensive healer, if u play offensive shield wp, you are welcome.

However, sigma radiance should hv enough fixed or basic healing and stack for str (past)
or it should hv no fixed and basic healing and stack for defensive status(suggestion).

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