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Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

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M0rw47h
Posts: 434

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#121 » Mon May 25, 2020 9:37 am

Spellbound wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:24 am
Telen wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:47 am
I do wonder what is off between here and live. Ranged never struggled as much on live particularly bw that could just melt over extending tanks. Here people seem to be able to just overextend into backlines pretty much at will. I dont know how avoidance and stats work differently but something has always felt different.
Ya currently a friend of mine is doing solo ranked and if he sees a BW join, he leaves it because it’s a loss.
If he has BW in team, enemies got rDPS as well...
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ravezaar
Posts: 81

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#122 » Mon May 25, 2020 10:20 am

I agree with OP, and to prevent killfarming I also like the idea of higher % dropchance the close to end of Campaign u get. Somethiing needs to attract ppl to PvP, all dont play for rewards but this is an MMO and lets face it most want a carrot or the leave like they doing atm..

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EsthelielSunfury
Posts: 106

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#123 » Mon May 25, 2020 10:40 am

Omegus wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:53 am
Spellbound wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:34 am
You see a reply couple posts above that the Zealot just completed his 2nd full sov set.

That’s exactly the balance problem. The guild/alliance is nearly dead now compared to a month ago after getting tired of the city on Order. I shared with Max in PMs the chart of one month of Destro vs Order in cities and overall Destro wins 2/3 of the instances and we had 45m exchange in stuff and was good debate as always him.
I have been in probably 80%+ of all city sieges (closer to 90%?), including staying up until stupid o'clock in the morning to help push, waking up in the middle of the night to discord notifications (city loggers represent), and at one point basically changed my sleeping pattern from EU to NA as cities were happening so often on NA time. When cities were introduced I was off work due to illness, then stuck at home on covid lockdown, and then working from home where I have some flexibility managing my time so I was able to participate in most sieges. I am very much the exception rather than the rule :). We still have loads of people in the alliance trying to complete their first set (we also have a Black Orc with all 3 sets but that's because he's a gold bag stealing *****).

Also, I hate to say this, but almost all of my city results were running with a competitive premade. Whether or not destro pugs have an easier time against order pugs or not wouldn't have made much if any difference to the amount of Royal Crests I have, as for me it's always been either destro premade vs order premade or destro premade vs order pugs.

The gap between the city results seems to be getting narrower and narrower, and I've also noticed a lot more order bringing MDPS into cities, so perhaps people are finally learning that the main advantage in cities is "melee" rather than "destro". Even the 12 DPS order pugs seem to be packed with melee now rather than engineers.

edit: if you haven't read it then this thread has a lot of insight into how the mindset has been different for order and destro with cities: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=38063. It's 49 pages and a lot is hot garbage but there is also a lot of useful insight there. The main thing is that due to the population difference destro had to form 24-mans from day 1 in order to have a chance at getting into the city (the queue prioritises 24-mans first) as if you solo queued then you didn't get in. Compare this to order where a huge majority of people still just solo queue straight away as they are guaranteed an instance due to being the smaller side. Those 24-man WBs very quickly became 2-2-2 WBs as there was enough surplus players for the WB leader to be picky, and then people got used to playing with each other and coordinating. Meanwhile order continued to queue solo and ended up with screwry team comps.

Something that might actually help out order is for the matchmaker to try and create 2-2-2 using the solo queuers to fill the missing classes rather than seemingly just putting in the first 24 people or whatever it does. This is what ranked scens does for solo queues and it would at least help give pug warbands a chance by having a tried and tested class distribution. Anyone left at the end of the 30 minues queue just gets thrown in together in whatever comp happens to be formed.

Actually, I like this idea so much I'm going to put it in the suggestions forum.
Telen wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:47 am
I do wonder what is off between here and live. Ranged never struggled as much on live particularly bw that could just melt over extending tanks. Here people seem to be able to just overextend into backlines pretty much at will. I dont know how avoidance and stats work differently but something has always felt different.
3 main things:

1) The gear gap on ROR is smaller than on Live so the overall damage is lower, making it harder to pick off targets before they get onto you.
2) Unshakable Focus - thr ranged M2 morale that increased damage by 100% - got removed as it was OP (it was OP on live as well).
3) The netcode is far better so melee can actually stay on a target.
Last two Cities I've been in we've been running a 6 man and a 12 man and we got matched against full Destro PuGs and slaughtered them. It's a problem on both sides, yet Destro keeps the advantage in City and the overall wins because of the synergy they have.

Every Destro City team being a 2/2/2 premade and Order being unorganized is nothing but a myth that has been used as an excuse for the imbalance at the moment.

I'm not yelling "Destro OP" because that's a low effort solution to a larger problem, but there are some classes on Order that are underperforming and could use some reworks.

Omegus
Posts: 362

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#124 » Mon May 25, 2020 10:47 am

EsthelielSunfury wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:40 am
Last two Cities I've been in we've been running a 6 man and a 12 man and we got matched against full Destro PuGs and slaughtered them. It's a problem on both sides, yet Destro keeps the advantage in City and the overall wins because of the synergy they have.

Every Destro City team being a 2/2/2 premade and Order being unorganized is nothing but a myth that has been used as an excuse for the imbalance at the moment.

I'm not yelling "Destro OP" because that's a low effort solution to a larger problem, but there are some classes on Order that are underperforming and could use some reworks.
Destro soloers are the *worst*. The lowest chance out of anyone to get into a city thus likely have the least experience. Destro having WBs full of soloers does happen but it's rarer than on order. Destro often form "low expectations" warbands (no I didn't make the name up) which is basically 24 completely random people in one warband to increase their chances of getting into the city. Coordination wise they are at the exact same level as soloers and the aim is to win bags as the expected chance of winning stages is low (hence the name).
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Spellbound
Posts: 25

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#125 » Mon May 25, 2020 11:52 am

Omegus wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:47 am
EsthelielSunfury wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:40 am
Last two Cities I've been in we've been running a 6 man and a 12 man and we got matched against full Destro PuGs and slaughtered them. It's a problem on both sides, yet Destro keeps the advantage in City and the overall wins because of the synergy they have.

Every Destro City team being a 2/2/2 premade and Order being unorganized is nothing but a myth that has been used as an excuse for the imbalance at the moment.

I'm not yelling "Destro OP" because that's a low effort solution to a larger problem, but there are some classes on Order that are underperforming and could use some reworks.
Destro soloers are the *worst*. The lowest chance out of anyone to get into a city thus likely have the least experience. Destro having WBs full of soloers does happen but it's rarer than on order. Destro often form "low expectations" warbands (no I didn't make the name up) which is basically 24 completely random people in one warband to increase their chances of getting into the city. Coordination wise they are at the exact same level as soloers and the aim is to win bags as the expected chance of winning stages is low (hence the name).
And destro can still win 2/3 instances with low expectations warband as you put. Probably the only wins order can get. Knights Of Order still can field strong WB and been 13-3 lately but requires heavy coordination and effort versus what other side requires.

anarchypark
Posts: 1574

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#126 » Mon May 25, 2020 12:45 pm

EsthelielSunfury wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:40 am

Last two Cities I've been in we've been running a 6 man and a 12 man and we got matched against full Destro PuGs and slaughtered them. It's a problem on both sides, yet Destro keeps the advantage in City and the overall wins because of the synergy they have.

Every Destro City team being a 2/2/2 premade and Order being unorganized is nothing but a myth that has been used as an excuse for the imbalance at the moment.

I'm not yelling "Destro OP" because that's a low effort solution to a larger problem, but there are some classes on Order that are underperforming and could use some reworks.

or order backline are plain low skilled.

it's same when WL had 2shot killing backlines.
destro healer/rdps were almost extinguished.
without healers, tanks mdps crumbled.
only premade had chance against WL.
even after all the hassles to make premade, being backline was still hard life against WL.
while order WL team had same performance with very low effort.
maybe it was balanced around top skilled premade vs premade. was it ok? IDK.
so only scrubs had remained as destro pug backlines. old story.

it's now happening on order side.
by GTDC, squig jump.
( though 0.5+0.5 for 1WL effect, not 1+1 )
key point is low effort high reward.
it's relatively easy for destro to harass backline. specially in 24vs24 blob aoe city.
push some buttons and they die.
being order backline in city is same experience of destro backline in WL story.
without backline, melees crumbled.
skilled backline only play premade.
scrubs remained as pug backline.
maybe it's balanced at top tier guild premade vs premade. is it ok? IDK.
history repeats.

it's not balance devs fault. remember how destro whine about rampage? ppl always seek loopholes, low efforts high gains. they found it recently in city.

time to fix and hope it's soon.
just my 2c.
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Gorfhag
Posts: 16

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#127 » Mon May 25, 2020 1:04 pm

I do not like idea of dropping royal crests and invader from players.

Eventhough Im EU guy with family, kids, house and work missing most of the cities, I believe that it would pretty much killed pushing the objectives and somehow destroy realm vs realm war which warhammer is about. We all know how lazy and creative we all are when it comes to easy gain. Im sure most of us would sooner or later do only these royal crest gring i.e. Typycal orvr ping pong with high rr players and just mindlessly farm.

What I would like to see is addition to end game city content such as ranked.
Ranked SC is very good idea and me and my friends really want to get our 6 man get going, but:
- reward is not interesting enough. Gear is simply slightly better invader
- solo is still far from ballanced and win or lose is determinated by your composition more than individual skill of players. I still have hopes devs make this work at the end.
- last but not least, queue time are terrible and when they pop. usually some people just dont join since they started doing something else already.

I would like to see some orvr objectives for small grp of players. I personally do cities only because of royals. I do not enjoy WB play at all and find it often very boring rather soon.
I enjoy small scale roam with our grp of 6 fighting other small scale grp or even warbands. It would be greal if there would be some objectives which target grps would be solo players and small parties with reward of royal crests or specific gear set similar to sov. Difficult to get, I dont care if it would be super slow, but it would be and alternative to cities which I would not need to participate on anymore and it would also required me ro participate in orvr and help progress the zones.

I actually like idea of someone here to make daily/weekly quests for royal crest or other new currency for new rvr set. Rather difficult one which can be completed only solo or in party, not in WB. Such as:
- kill XX players
- destroy XX siege weapons
- return XX your and opposing faction resources
- damage enemy keep doors with cannon to prevent enemy upgrade keep in active zone.
- cap XX BOs
- kill XX players at BOs
Possibly add some new mechanics such as running suppliest between keep and some point on the map while oppsing grp and solo players would try to stop you and retun these resources.

I know there is many small scale solo players and grps which do city only because there is no other way for them to get high end gear. It would be great to have it. I mean Im doing this even if there is no reward for it and will keep doing so because Im having fun.

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Ugle
Posts: 523

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#128 » Mon May 25, 2020 1:57 pm

Also you could increase city rewards based on kills/contribution in endzones and forts to prevent stalemate killfarming. Lots of ways to mitigate stalemate killfarming stopping endgame content.
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toffikx
Posts: 279

Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#129 » Mon May 25, 2020 5:02 pm

Gorfhag wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 1:04 pm
I do not like idea of dropping royal crests and invader from players , I believe that it would pretty much killed pushing the objectives and somehow destroy realm vs realm war which warhammer is about.
When Vanquisher was best set, the fighting in rvr was great, and arguably much better than it is today. And Vanquisher drops from kills so...

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Telen
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Re: Corrections to PvP in a PvP game

Post#130 » Mon May 25, 2020 5:19 pm

The hard truth is fort and city were terrible in live and partly responsible for why the game failed. Now were experiencing those problems here. Mythics only fix was to remove one completely and make the other optional and commonly exploited for empty instances.
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