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teiloh
Posts: 246

Re: thunderous blow

Post#21 » Wed May 27, 2020 8:44 am

nat3s wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:10 am
teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:30 pm
The Marauder would have to trade a lot of util and survivability in order to fairly get what the other MDPS have. It's arguable that Slayers and Witch Hunters don't have much burst either.

This is a bit of a non argument, Mara as Sav/Brut has less survivability than a WL as they have no KD. WL have the 1.5k armour and heal debuffs too incidentally...

I'd happily sacrifice the wounds debuff on a mara if it meant:

• Maras had an instant cast pull as reliable as the WL pet pull.
• Maras had a pounce so they didn't get kited all the damn time (another reason why Mara survivability is low)
• Maras had a 3s KD as Sav/Brut.

WL is infinitely more powerful at present in terms of 6 man and solo roaming play, you may not be at the skill level where you can recognise it, but it's true :)
Cute burn. I can probably out DPS you on my level 20 Magus.

It's facetious to imply Brut/Sav Mara have low survivability. You can switch to Monstro and get that proc going if you're about to die. I know from playing SW/SH that even RSW/SH can swap to their melee modes and get their armor up.

You can have an "instant cast pull" if it's tied to a buggy pet that can't get group bonuses, to which your crit tactic and haste are tied. No, the Mara pull is superior by far. You may not be at the skill level where you can realize this, but it's true :)

You can also get pounce and a 3s KD once you lose your core interrupt, AOE KD, survivability, heal steal, morale stopper, AOE drain, and everything else I missed.

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wildwindblows
Posts: 170

Re: thunderous blow

Post#22 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:12 am

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:44 am
nat3s wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:10 am
teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:30 pm
The Marauder would have to trade a lot of util and survivability in order to fairly get what the other MDPS have. It's arguable that Slayers and Witch Hunters don't have much burst either.

This is a bit of a non argument, Mara as Sav/Brut has less survivability than a WL as they have no KD. WL have the 1.5k armour and heal debuffs too incidentally...

I'd happily sacrifice the wounds debuff on a mara if it meant:

• Maras had an instant cast pull as reliable as the WL pet pull.
• Maras had a pounce so they didn't get kited all the damn time (another reason why Mara survivability is low)
• Maras had a 3s KD as Sav/Brut.

WL is infinitely more powerful at present in terms of 6 man and solo roaming play, you may not be at the skill level where you can recognise it, but it's true :)
Cute burn. I can probably out DPS you on my level 20 Magus.

It's facetious to imply Brut/Sav Mara have low survivability. You can switch to Monstro and get that proc going if you're about to die. I know from playing SW/SH that even RSW/SH can swap to their melee modes and get their armor up.

You can have an "instant cast pull" if it's tied to a buggy pet that can't get group bonuses, to which your crit tactic and haste are tied. No, the Mara pull is superior by far. You may not be at the skill level where you can realize this, but it's true :)

You can also get pounce and a 3s KD once you lose your core interrupt, AOE KD, survivability, heal steal, morale stopper, AOE drain, and everything else I missed.
You all have reasons but i think any dps class need brust and Mara is the only dps class which suffering lack of brust.

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Pandastyle
Posts: 48

Re: thunderous blow

Post#23 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:57 am

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:44 am
Spoiler:
nat3s wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:10 am
teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:30 pm
The Marauder would have to trade a lot of util and survivability in order to fairly get what the other MDPS have. It's arguable that Slayers and Witch Hunters don't have much burst either.

This is a bit of a non argument, Mara as Sav/Brut has less survivability than a WL as they have no KD. WL have the 1.5k armour and heal debuffs too incidentally...

I'd happily sacrifice the wounds debuff on a mara if it meant:

• Maras had an instant cast pull as reliable as the WL pet pull.
• Maras had a pounce so they didn't get kited all the damn time (another reason why Mara survivability is low)
• Maras had a 3s KD as Sav/Brut.

WL is infinitely more powerful at present in terms of 6 man and solo roaming play, you may not be at the skill level where you can recognise it, but it's true :)
Cute burn. I can probably out DPS you on my level 20 Magus.

It's facetious to imply Brut/Sav Mara have low survivability. You can switch to Monstro and get that proc going if you're about to die. I know from playing SW/SH that even RSW/SH can swap to their melee modes and get their armor up.

You can have an "instant cast pull" if it's tied to a buggy pet that can't get group bonuses, to which your crit tactic and haste are tied. No, the Mara pull is superior by far. You may not be at the skill level where you can realize this, but it's true :)

You can also get pounce and a 3s KD once you lose your core interrupt, AOE KD, survivability, heal steal, morale stopper, AOE drain, and everything else I missed.
Well the argument is not that brut/sav has low surviveability, but that is less surviveable than a WL and I can see that for the reasons the fella posted there.
I can see that in theory swapping to monstro to gain survability is an option which the WL doesnt has but in the same time you lose half of your skills because as a brut/sav you are not monstro specced obviosly (so also no KD (which is 2secs...barely enough time to fire off one skill after gcd)). The proc is also only 25%. And you are stuck for at least 5secs in monstro. And once you switch mutation the proc is gone...

Regarding the pull...I see your point that the WL pull is tied to the liable pet, but saying that the Mara pull is "superior by far"...just no sorry :D I'd say they are on par but mara pull far superior? We can agree that they are both shite

The heal steal is a joke barely anyone sacrifices a tactic slot for... AoE morale stopper and drain was kinda nerfed and afaik there is no drain anymore? If you refer to Crushing Blows tactic, the tooltip says "remove" not drain...maybe tooltip is wrong tho, if thats the case I am sorry
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Foofmonger
Posts: 316

Re: thunderous blow

Post#24 » Wed May 27, 2020 1:48 pm

Duplicate post - wasn't giving me the delete option.
Last edited by Foofmonger on Wed May 27, 2020 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Foofmonger
Posts: 316

Re: thunderous blow

Post#25 » Wed May 27, 2020 1:50 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:44 am
nat3s wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 7:10 am
teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:30 pm
The Marauder would have to trade a lot of util and survivability in order to fairly get what the other MDPS have. It's arguable that Slayers and Witch Hunters don't have much burst either.

This is a bit of a non argument, Mara as Sav/Brut has less survivability than a WL as they have no KD. WL have the 1.5k armour and heal debuffs too incidentally...

I'd happily sacrifice the wounds debuff on a mara if it meant:

• Maras had an instant cast pull as reliable as the WL pet pull.
• Maras had a pounce so they didn't get kited all the damn time (another reason why Mara survivability is low)
• Maras had a 3s KD as Sav/Brut.

WL is infinitely more powerful at present in terms of 6 man and solo roaming play, you may not be at the skill level where you can recognise it, but it's true :)
Cute burn. I can probably out DPS you on my level 20 Magus.

It's facetious to imply Brut/Sav Mara have low survivability. You can switch to Monstro and get that proc going if you're about to die. I know from playing SW/SH that even RSW/SH can swap to their melee modes and get their armor up.

You can have an "instant cast pull" if it's tied to a buggy pet that can't get group bonuses, to which your crit tactic and haste are tied. No, the Mara pull is superior by far. You may not be at the skill level where you can realize this, but it's true :)

You can also get pounce and a 3s KD once you lose your core interrupt, AOE KD, survivability, heal steal, morale stopper, AOE drain, and everything else I missed.
1. It is facetious to imply Brut/Sav Mara have low survivability. It's also facetious to imply that they have "good surviavbility", both of these are wrong. Both overvaluaing and undervaluing Monstro proc is a mistake. You heavily over-value it, a lot of Marauder players heavily under-value it, neither are correct. It's extremely contextual to whom you are fighting, what the situation is, and if the proc is the right call (it's usually not in the majority of situations, but sometimes it is). Again though, it has to be recognized that just like a ranged SW that swaps to melee, a non-Monstro Marauder that swaps to Monstro is basically useless besides trying to survive for a few seconds and get focus off of them.

2. No the Mara pull is not superior by far, we covered this last time, it's extremely broken at the moment, maybe if they fix it, but as of right now, just no. You just don't have the experience with either of the pulls to have an informed opinion on the subject. If you want to get into this subject again, fine.

3. Marauder's do not need pounce or a 3 second KD. A shadowstep variant could be a possibility for parity/mobility increases, but it would have to be balanced very carefully to not be overpowered.

nat3s
Posts: 251

Re: thunderous blow

Post#26 » Wed May 27, 2020 5:31 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 8:44 am
You can also get pounce and a 3s KD once you lose your core interrupt, AOE KD, survivability, heal steal, morale stopper, AOE drain, and everything else I missed.

Deal!

Sav/Brut does not have high survivability, Monstros with armour talis and toughness gear does, be interested to see how a WL performs with armour talis and toughness gear. Would make for an interesting comparison. Anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

Switching to Monstros stance as a Sav spec Mara (therefore in dps gear with no armour talis) just sacrifices all your damage for a 200hp per 3 seconds HoT... You now have a tiny amount of healing, but you're still in Sav gear and squishy, but now cannot use your main damage abilities losing you 50% armour pen, your armour debuff, wounds debuff, heal reduction and execute. You'll go from 1.5k crits to 700 on a rSW / BW!

To suggest the WL isn't vastly superior in 6v6 and solo roaming would be plain wrong. It's immediately obvious if you've played both classes to 50+.

WB play you'd have a point, Mara trumps WL there imo and it's organised city sieges which is the reason why I play a Mara.
Destruction - Pain and Pleasure Guild
Defrack rr73 Mara
Defraz rr81 Magus

teiloh
Posts: 246

Re: thunderous blow

Post#27 » Wed May 27, 2020 6:16 pm

wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:12 am
You all have reasons but i think any dps class need brust and Mara is the only dps class which suffering lack of brust.
This is unsubstantiated. Where do you think a WH or Slayer have burst? It seems like you're defining burst damage only in ability DPS spikes, which the Slayer does not have. They, like Choppas, just have high sustain.
Pandastyle wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:57 am
Well the argument is not that brut/sav has low surviveability, but that is less surviveable than a WL and I can see that for the reasons the fella posted there.
I can see that in theory swapping to monstro to gain survability is an option which the WL doesnt has but in the same time you lose half of your skills because as a brut/sav you are not monstro specced obviosly (so also no KD (which is 2secs...barely enough time to fire off one skill after gcd)). The proc is also only 25%. And you are stuck for at least 5secs in monstro. And once you switch mutation the proc is gone...

Regarding the pull...I see your point that the WL pull is tied to the liable pet, but saying that the Mara pull is "superior by far"...just no sorry :D I'd say they are on par but mara pull far superior? We can agree that they are both shite

The heal steal is a joke barely anyone sacrifices a tactic slot for... AoE morale stopper and drain was kinda nerfed and afaik there is no drain anymore? If you refer to Crushing Blows tactic, the tooltip says "remove" not drain...maybe tooltip is wrong tho, if thats the case I am sorry
The WL can escape with Pounce. Sav Mara's have heal steal and a haste debuff proc. Lets not pretend the heal steal is bad, whenever we end up fighting a Marauder with that on any of my healers I have to switch to using shields and lifetaps and spamming cures to keep someone alive lest the Marauder become unkillable. We have all seen how powerful it is.

The Mara pull is far superior, even after it was changed to not rubberband people as much. You almost never see WL fetches but tons of Mara pulls. This is because the WL pet gets killed extremely easily, has a long travel time, is buggy in that it randomly clings to your side when you send it on to targets beyond 30 foot range, etc. The Mara "kill radius" is also much higher at the full 65 feet while the WL kill radius is 5 feet from the pet. It might be on par if the WL pet was fixed to receive group buffs again, had a slightly longer range, and a bonus to speed were built into the base pet rather than requiring a tactic slot.

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 1:50 pm

1. It is facetious to imply Brut/Sav Mara have low survivability. It's also facetious to imply that they have "good surviavbility", both of these are wrong. Both overvaluaing and undervaluing Monstro proc is a mistake. You heavily over-value it, a lot of Marauder players heavily under-value it, neither are correct. It's extremely contextual to whom you are fighting, what the situation is, and if the proc is the right call (it's usually not in the majority of situations, but sometimes it is). Again though, it has to be recognized that just like a ranged SW that swaps to melee, a non-Monstro Marauder that swaps to Monstro is basically useless besides trying to survive for a few seconds and get focus off of them.

2. No the Mara pull is not superior by far, we covered this last time, it's extremely broken at the moment, maybe if they fix it, but as of right now, just no. You just don't have the experience with either of the pulls to have an informed opinion on the subject. If you want to get into this subject again, fine.

3. Marauder's do not need pounce or a 3 second KD. A shadowstep variant could be a possibility for parity/mobility increases, but it would have to be balanced very carefully to not be overpowered.
I don't believe I over-value -100% armor pen and a 1k heal over 5 seconds. Even on my Magus, Aegis of Orange Fire saved my ass so many times from simply being an on-demand Wounds buff/Insta heal. Mara proc is far more effective than that, especially while being healed.
nat3s wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 5:31 pm
Deal!

Sav/Brut does not have high survivability, Monstros with armour talis and toughness gear does, be interested to see how a WL performs with armour talis and toughness gear. Would make for an interesting comparison. Anything else is comparing apples to oranges.

Switching to Monstros stance as a Sav spec Mara (therefore in dps gear with no armour talis) just sacrifices all your damage for a 200hp per 3 seconds HoT... You now have a tiny amount of healing, but you're still in Sav gear and squishy, but now cannot use your main damage abilities losing you 50% armour pen, your armour debuff, wounds debuff, heal reduction and execute. You'll go from 1.5k crits to 700 on a rSW / BW!

To suggest the WL isn't vastly superior in 6v6 and solo roaming would be plain wrong. It's immediately obvious if you've played both classes to 50+.

WB play you'd have a point, Mara trumps WL there imo and it's organised city sieges which is the reason why I play a Mara.
Monstro is a 200 heal every second, not every 3 seconds. It's the highest HPS HoT in the game. 5x200ish ticks. And it 100% ignores all armor pen. And losing your damage is preferable to dying.

nat3s
Posts: 251

Re: thunderous blow

Post#28 » Wed May 27, 2020 6:20 pm

Losing your dmg means you're a sitting duck, it may extend your existence by a second or 2.

Have you actually played both a Mara and WL to 50+? You'd know how much stronger a WL feels in 6v6 and solo roaming if you had. WL is in a great spot right now, to suggest otherwise is deflection.
Destruction - Pain and Pleasure Guild
Defrack rr73 Mara
Defraz rr81 Magus

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teiloh
Posts: 246

Re: thunderous blow

Post#29 » Wed May 27, 2020 6:47 pm

Losing your damage is preferable to dying.

WLs are fine and no one said otherwise. Maras are also fine. The people asking for WL abilities on Marauders are out of line.

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wildwindblows
Posts: 170

Re: thunderous blow

Post#30 » Wed May 27, 2020 7:25 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 6:47 pm
Losing your damage is preferable to dying.

WLs are fine and no one said otherwise. Maras are also fine. The people asking for WL abilities on Marauders are out of line.
Mara nerfed to the ground with tb and pb nerfs. These ppl just want old mara back, nothing more.

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