teiloh wrote: ↑
Wed May 27, 2020 9:44 pm
Your dismissal of -100% armor pen is extremely tortured and disingenuous. First, Torment is not all of a WH's DPS. For a Judgment specced WH, it's probably 30-35% of their overall DPS and 40-45% of their physical DPS *if* they're attacking you from behind.
It's really not, and I stand by my argument. I am not trying to be disingeneous. Of course there is more nuance that I didn't cover in terms of sources of attacks, I can't cover every single ability of every class.
The point is, that the WH has a way to get around the monstro proc. Sure, it's not all of their DPS, but as a WH if you are attacking a Monstro Marauder and you aren't using Torment thats on the player and their lack of situational awareness.
Second, your arbitrary reductionist plea to "effective armor" devalues ALL +armor abilities. "500-600 effective armor" is better than any armor buff or pot in the game by your own math and reckoning.
It's on par with an extra armor pot basically actually, which is what I was going into, it's roughly gonna give the same EHP boost as an extra pot. I'm not devaluaing anything. This is literally what I was stating.
You challenged me to play solo and judge how much a "single HoT" difference is. The difference is ENORMOUS. This is why I pre-hot on my healer. This is why people spend thousands of gold on HoT potions. This is why Engineers spec Bugman's Best even though the ability is objectively trash 90% of the time. A small hot can easily take you out of one-shot risk, slow-down, and execute zones. It increases your life expectancy significantly. All of these broaden your options for play. My entire point was that yes, the effective equivalent of +150-300 wounds over the average engagement is significant. Otherwise no one would bother suiting for Wounds. Otherwise we wouldn't even have this entire thread crying about the loss of 60-80 effective wounds debuff.
The difference is not enormous, that just hyperbole. There is a difference, but I don't think you understand the definition of the word enormous. We all pre-hot and use hot potions, and they do not increase your life expectancy significantly in all situations. I think your take here is completely off, and the vast majority of the time you will have no effective difference in how long it takes for you to get bursted down by component opponents due to a single hot. A single hot can certainly increase your lifespan when taking indirect fluff damage, but any serious level of play it does nothing.
I stand by my point.
Third, you're ignoring the abilities that specifically ignore armor pen, e.g Eng and WH.
Fair point, I did forget about those, not ignore. You got me here. I am not trying to be disingenous, and happy to admit when you bring up a good point.
Fourth, the assumption of "25% pen" is hilariously underestimated. My fresh 40 Engineer has 25% pen without even trying. Go look at the threads where Destro is whining about Rampage - they are claiming that Slayers and WL run 55-60% passive pen *easily*. So the reality is, with a 1900 debuffed armor in your example, you have 40-50% mitigation whereas a WL that has been armor debuffed will have an effective 850 armor or less than 20% mitigation. And that's assuming no one is curing anything.
That was a random number I pulled out of my ass as an example baseline (as on my Marauder, I have about 15% at baseline and actually do need to stack some WS to get it up to 25%) I could have used any % number you'd like. And I seriously don't think Slayers/WLs are running 60% passive pen (that seems like hyperbole).
That being said, I don't think 25% is an unreasonable number to use at baseline. Can we go up to 30-35% for a sake of argument here? Sure! I'm happy to do so. With 1900 debuffed armor in my example, versus 35% pen, the WL would have effectively 1235 armor, whereas the Marauder would retain the 1900, so an increase of 665. A little over the 400-600 range I initially spoke of, but hardly "way off".
I stand by my argument.
The point is, the Monstro proc is good enough to be a reliable difference between life and death.
In some contexts and situations yes. In others no. That's why you overvalue it, it's not that complicated.
At 25% proc rate, it's rare that it won't be up within 2 seconds of single targeting someone.
It's still a chance, it still happens, and 2 seconds is a long time when you have 4-10 melee dps bursting you down and trying to CC you.
No one argued against Pounce's effectiveness. Keep in mind, survivability isn't the only thing Mara's have over WLs, and the Monstro proc isn't the Mara's only survivability advantage over a WL.
No. This is just a bad take. Survivability isn't anything Maras have over WLs. WLs have better survivability due to pounce, period. They also have better mobility, and better burst damage, and similar sustained damage. Marauders do have some utility and CC advantages, and as I think you know, I'm not asking for huge Marauder buffs in general. The point I'm making here is that your comparison between the classes is just so off. You say that the Marauder needs to give up survivability and utility for damage (which is a fair point, not gonna argue that), but your premise is off because you over-value the Marauder's surviavbility and utility in general.
This is the server that got embarassingly dominated by Bright Wizards pressing one button and a 1200 damage point blank M2, I would question these "experts"
Or we can not be dicks and listen to each other and accept that there are a variety of opinions, playstyles, and knowledge had by the playerbase. Using your logic I could say "teiloh is the guy who came up with the Engineer/Magus mechanics which are some of the most poorly designed class mechanics in an MMO ever, and should probably never have their balance opinion taken seriously". See how that works when we use some example of a past failure to disqualify someone's opinion?
Rather, I've shown I know far better than most Marauders here. You tried to debate me based on flawed hypotheticals (25% armor pen? 50/50% melee/magic? really?) and did not succeed.
Here comes the delusional part I'm guessing. How can you say "I did not succeed" when we are in the middle of the discussion? You don't even know my response, which you happen to be reading right now. No, you didn't succeed bud, you didn't even come close (as usual). I literally stated the hypothetically for the sake of arugment, that's how hypotheticals work they are not "flawed". If you don't like the numbers, we can re-do the calculation (I already did that above btw). The point still stands.
Feel free to post Marauder damage numbers if you want to actually argue that Marauders don't have enough burst. And since we're playing this game, go ahead and post them for ALL physical DPS you play. The community does actually need this data badly, so thank you for volunteering.
I can do that, in fact, I already have. Is your memory that bad? You still have posted a single number, and I posted a ton of Marauder data. I'm still waiting for you from 2 **** months ago. Get your **** together.