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Foofmonger
Posts: 436

Re: thunderous blow

Post#41 » Wed May 27, 2020 9:47 pm

wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:39 pm

I have rr 85 x5sov x2 sentinel x2 warlord mara so I can assume that I have end game stuff however my damage is really low compared to other dps classes. Also, sav/brut mara is not survivable as most of the ppl think. You can be tanky if you want if you stack armor/toughness and go monstro stance but in this way your damage will impresively decrease. I've a reason to write comment here but Telioh really trying to ruin this topic.
Well to be fair, Marauder DPS, if you optimize for it, should be at least "somewhat comparable" to some other DPS classes. It's definitely not "as good" but it also shouldn't be "low".

I'd need more information if you were looking for advice, but I don't think you are?

I do get some of telioh's point, and I don't by any means hate the person. Teiloh isn't wrong when he says that Marauder players sometime ask for ridiculous balance requests (give me pounce, for instance). So I understand that when we say things like "my damage is really low compared to other dps classes", it can irk someone like Teiloh because honestly, it's not true. Marauder damage isn't "really low", it's just also "not very good", it is in fact, fairly medicore.

I personally don't think Marauder's have any major damage issues after the latest update to them. There may be some nice QOL tweaks that the class can get, but it doesn't need a major DPS buff by any means. Teiloh's point that damage needs to be balanced with both utility and survivability in mind is a solid argument in a vacuum, it's just that I believe his understanding of the Marauder's utility and survivability to be not realistic as he has no direct experience.

So unfortunately, I also don't agree with you that the Marauder has bad damage.

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teiloh
Posts: 277

Re: thunderous blow

Post#42 » Wed May 27, 2020 9:56 pm

Keep in mind, I play SW and Magus here and I don't even believe they need much of a damage or "burst" increase if any at all, so that's my baseline. I don't think any class really needs a major damage buff, in fact.

Foofmonger
Posts: 436

Re: thunderous blow

Post#43 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:06 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:44 pm

Your dismissal of -100% armor pen is extremely tortured and disingenuous. First, Torment is not all of a WH's DPS. For a Judgment specced WH, it's probably 30-35% of their overall DPS and 40-45% of their physical DPS *if* they're attacking you from behind.
It's really not, and I stand by my argument. I am not trying to be disingeneous. Of course there is more nuance that I didn't cover in terms of sources of attacks, I can't cover every single ability of every class.

The point is, that the WH has a way to get around the monstro proc. Sure, it's not all of their DPS, but as a WH if you are attacking a Monstro Marauder and you aren't using Torment thats on the player and their lack of situational awareness.
Second, your arbitrary reductionist plea to "effective armor" devalues ALL +armor abilities. "500-600 effective armor" is better than any armor buff or pot in the game by your own math and reckoning.
It's on par with an extra armor pot basically actually, which is what I was going into, it's roughly gonna give the same EHP boost as an extra pot. I'm not devaluaing anything. This is literally what I was stating.
You challenged me to play solo and judge how much a "single HoT" difference is. The difference is ENORMOUS. This is why I pre-hot on my healer. This is why people spend thousands of gold on HoT potions. This is why Engineers spec Bugman's Best even though the ability is objectively trash 90% of the time. A small hot can easily take you out of one-shot risk, slow-down, and execute zones. It increases your life expectancy significantly. All of these broaden your options for play. My entire point was that yes, the effective equivalent of +150-300 wounds over the average engagement is significant. Otherwise no one would bother suiting for Wounds. Otherwise we wouldn't even have this entire thread crying about the loss of 60-80 effective wounds debuff.
The difference is not enormous, that just hyperbole. There is a difference, but I don't think you understand the definition of the word enormous. We all pre-hot and use hot potions, and they do not increase your life expectancy significantly in all situations. I think your take here is completely off, and the vast majority of the time you will have no effective difference in how long it takes for you to get bursted down by component opponents due to a single hot. A single hot can certainly increase your lifespan when taking indirect fluff damage, but any serious level of play it does nothing.

I stand by my point.
Third, you're ignoring the abilities that specifically ignore armor pen, e.g Eng and WH.
Fair point, I did forget about those, not ignore. You got me here. I am not trying to be disingenous, and happy to admit when you bring up a good point.
Fourth, the assumption of "25% pen" is hilariously underestimated. My fresh 40 Engineer has 25% pen without even trying. Go look at the threads where Destro is whining about Rampage - they are claiming that Slayers and WL run 55-60% passive pen *easily*. So the reality is, with a 1900 debuffed armor in your example, you have 40-50% mitigation whereas a WL that has been armor debuffed will have an effective 850 armor or less than 20% mitigation. And that's assuming no one is curing anything.
That was a random number I pulled out of my ass as an example baseline (as on my Marauder, I have about 15% at baseline and actually do need to stack some WS to get it up to 25%) I could have used any % number you'd like. And I seriously don't think Slayers/WLs are running 60% passive pen (that seems like hyperbole).

That being said, I don't think 25% is an unreasonable number to use at baseline. Can we go up to 30-35% for a sake of argument here? Sure! I'm happy to do so. With 1900 debuffed armor in my example, versus 35% pen, the WL would have effectively 1235 armor, whereas the Marauder would retain the 1900, so an increase of 665. A little over the 400-600 range I initially spoke of, but hardly "way off".

I stand by my argument.
The point is, the Monstro proc is good enough to be a reliable difference between life and death.
In some contexts and situations yes. In others no. That's why you overvalue it, it's not that complicated.


At 25% proc rate, it's rare that it won't be up within 2 seconds of single targeting someone.
It's still a chance, it still happens, and 2 seconds is a long time when you have 4-10 melee dps bursting you down and trying to CC you.
No one argued against Pounce's effectiveness. Keep in mind, survivability isn't the only thing Mara's have over WLs, and the Monstro proc isn't the Mara's only survivability advantage over a WL.
No. This is just a bad take. Survivability isn't anything Maras have over WLs. WLs have better survivability due to pounce, period. They also have better mobility, and better burst damage, and similar sustained damage. Marauders do have some utility and CC advantages, and as I think you know, I'm not asking for huge Marauder buffs in general. The point I'm making here is that your comparison between the classes is just so off. You say that the Marauder needs to give up survivability and utility for damage (which is a fair point, not gonna argue that), but your premise is off because you over-value the Marauder's surviavbility and utility in general.
This is the server that got embarassingly dominated by Bright Wizards pressing one button and a 1200 damage point blank M2, I would question these "experts"
Or we can not be dicks and listen to each other and accept that there are a variety of opinions, playstyles, and knowledge had by the playerbase. Using your logic I could say "teiloh is the guy who came up with the Engineer/Magus mechanics which are some of the most poorly designed class mechanics in an MMO ever, and should probably never have their balance opinion taken seriously". See how that works when we use some example of a past failure to disqualify someone's opinion?
Rather, I've shown I know far better than most Marauders here. You tried to debate me based on flawed hypotheticals (25% armor pen? 50/50% melee/magic? really?) and did not succeed.
Here comes the delusional part I'm guessing. How can you say "I did not succeed" when we are in the middle of the discussion? You don't even know my response, which you happen to be reading right now. No, you didn't succeed bud, you didn't even come close (as usual). I literally stated the hypothetically for the sake of arugment, that's how hypotheticals work they are not "flawed". If you don't like the numbers, we can re-do the calculation (I already did that above btw). The point still stands.
Feel free to post Marauder damage numbers if you want to actually argue that Marauders don't have enough burst. And since we're playing this game, go ahead and post them for ALL physical DPS you play. The community does actually need this data badly, so thank you for volunteering.
I can do that, in fact, I already have. Is your memory that bad? You still have posted a single number, and I posted a ton of Marauder data. I'm still waiting for you from 2 **** months ago. Get your **** together.
Last edited by Foofmonger on Wed May 27, 2020 10:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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wildwindblows
Posts: 172

Re: thunderous blow

Post#44 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:09 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:47 pm
wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:39 pm

I have rr 85 x5sov x2 sentinel x2 warlord mara so I can assume that I have end game stuff however my damage is really low compared to other dps classes. Also, sav/brut mara is not survivable as most of the ppl think. You can be tanky if you want if you stack armor/toughness and go monstro stance but in this way your damage will impresively decrease. I've a reason to write comment here but Telioh really trying to ruin this topic.
Well to be fair, Marauder DPS, if you optimize for it, should be at least "somewhat comparable" to some other DPS classes. It's definitely not "as good" but it also shouldn't be "low".

I'd need more information if you were looking for advice, but I don't think you are?

I do get some of telioh's point, and I don't by any means hate the person. Teiloh isn't wrong when he says that Marauder players sometime ask for ridiculous balance requests (give me pounce, for instance). So I understand that when we say things like "my damage is really low compared to other dps classes", it can irk someone like Teiloh because honestly, it's not true. Marauder damage isn't "really low", it's just also "not very good", it is in fact, fairly medicore.

I personally don't think Marauder's have any major damage issues after the latest update to them. There may be some nice QOL tweaks that the class can get, but it doesn't need a major DPS buff by any means. Teiloh's point that damage needs to be balanced with both utility and survivability in mind is a solid argument in a vacuum, it's just that I believe his understanding of the Marauder's utility and survivability to be not realistic as he has no direct experience.

So unfortunately, I also don't agree with you that the Marauder has bad damage.
Yeah, I'm testing gears, weapons and stats rather than seeking advice. Idk, mara is not good in ranked sc atm because of lack of brust. DPS DOK much better regarding to survavibility and brust damage. Brust talks in ranked unfortunately and Mara is the only dps class in the game which suffering lack of brust.

Foofmonger
Posts: 436

Re: thunderous blow

Post#45 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:15 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:56 pm
Keep in mind, I play SW and Magus here and I don't even believe they need much of a damage or "burst" increase if any at all, so that's my baseline. I don't think any class really needs a major damage buff, in fact.
I also don't think the Marauder needs a damage buff at all, and I mostly agree with your statement in general. The SW clearly has some issues, but it's not raw DPS that is the classes main issue at the moment.

Look, I totally get why you come into these threads and do what you do. I understand wanting to ensure the game is balanced properly. You are just way off when it comes to the Marauder class and what this class can do and how it functions. What you aren't way off on is that the class doesn't need massive buffs. I actually tend to agree with you on many of the Marauder suggestions/balance proposals, they are usually quite terrible and/or overpowered suggestions.

However, what I don't agree with you on is that the class needs nothing. It definitely could use some small QOL tweaks as many classes could in this game to make it more viable in more settings. It may even need to get some nerfs, to get those tweaks (to the point of utility/survivability and trade offs), and again, that's fine. But what irks me is to read your hyberpole about things like "undeserved damage buffs" (even post buff, Mara damage is still low/medium in comparison to all other DPS classes), and that "the pull is good", and **** like that. You can make your points without implying that the class is perfect and needs no tweaks ever, because that's a bad take and I know you know that it's not correct. Making illogical arguments that the Mara "shouldn't" do WL levels of burst because of their "extra survivability" is just such a silly take. That's not why the Marauder shouldn't do WL levels of burst, there's actually a few good reasons why it shouldn't but monstro proc isn't the reason, as stated above, Pounce alone is far better than Monstro proc can ever be (unless Monstro proc allows you to teleport across the battlefield as a get out of jailf free card).

So I hope you understand my viewpoint. I'm not agreeing with the other Marauders, nor am I agreeing with you. I have a different viewpoint, somewhere in the middle of these two extremes that "the glass is garbage" and "the class is perfect". Neither of these extreme hybperbolic opinions is realistic at all. The truth is that the class is "ok", and it's fine to play, it's not junk, nor is it amazing. Maybe that's ok and we should be proposing to bring other classes down to the reality that is the Marauder's level of balance (I think this is more your viewpoint), rather than to try to take the Marauder up to levels of overbalance (not my viewpoint either).

I do recall you saying that you were a purist to Mythic's vision, so I am a little confused on how that relates to your Marauder opinions, since you don't seem to want to take the class back to the original vision of it on live (I think I know why, for good reasons). In theory, you should be for the TB swap back to where it was originally, as that was the design of the class by Mythic no (well, to be fair, the original TB was the most overpowered skill in the entire game, but almost nobody remembers it now).

Regardless, if you want to freely post your opinions of Mara balance without me responding, all you have to do is cut the hyperbole out and be realistic. Saying "hey this proposal to give Marauders pounce or a damage buff is overpowered because of XYZ" is fine if the reasons are realistic. Saying "hey this proposal to give Marauders pounce or a damage buff is overpowered because the Marauder is a perfect class that already got undeserved buffs and is overtuned" is nonsensical hyperbole.

Monstro Proc does not justify the classes lack of damage. It's lack of damage is justified by the entire package of the class. The fact that it has the most debuffs of any MDPS class, combined with the flexibility to in pinch situations, become fairly survivable, with medicore damage, with some decent CC/utility, is why it doesn't need damage buffs. There is no one "smoking gun" factor. The reality is that the Marauder is one of the lowest risk MDPS classes to play (although all MDPS is a risk), and therefore risk//reward. A Marauder shouldn't ever be doing WH/WE/Slayer/Choppa levels of damage (assuming Slayer/Choppa is zerking).

One of the major causes of this issue is the fact that WL damage is currently slightly over-tuned (you may disagree), which incites these types of comparisons. On live, Mara/WL damage was much closer, and the WL's increase mobility/survivability was a fair trade for the Marauders increased CC/utility/debuffs. In fact, at the end of live the scales got tipped into the Mara's favor and they became a bit stronger than the WL. The exact opposite has happened here, where pre-PSM buff, the Marauder had effectively 0 buffs on this server for 6 years, and a host of nerfs. It was (and still is) one of the few classes in the game (WH/WE) that's actually worse than it was on live (and maybe for good reason, not arguing that it shouldn't be, just stating a fact). So what ends up happening is that new Marauder players see what WLs can do and say to themselves "why the hell can't I do that", which is a fair way to start thinking about balance, and there are of course, a variety of reasons that I think you and I have already hashed out to death on that comparison.

So then, what do Marauder's actually need if not damage? Well, they do have some issues. Their debuffs have been systematically nerfed throughout the years from "Best in the game" to "comparable to others" to "sometimes worse than others". One of the unique selling points of the class has effectively been gutted on this server, and that's what this particular thread is about. Marauders also have a mobility issue, being the only one of the 4 way mirror SW/SH/WL/Mara that does not have any mobility increasing skill outside of charge. Marauders have a few bugs/QOL issues as well, such as the horroendously broken pull that works best as a 5 second knockdown, or that Mutated Aggressor (and Primary Fury for that matter) have terrible uptimes for damage boosting skills.

However, that being said there are also a list of things the Marauder doesn't need. It doesn't need Pounce (just because it has a mobility issue, doesn't mean it needs the best mobility skill in the game), it doesn't need any major (or even minor) damage boosts. It doesn't need a complete re-design. It doesn't need new stance procs (except maybe nerfing monstro to justify another change), etc... so a lot of the "proposed solutions" for the Marauder class are solving a non-issues in reality and that some players propsing these balance changes may not have a good enough grip on this games balance (and history) to really understand the nuance needed to propose meaningful balance changes. I do not think however, have any malice or are inciting some kind of grand conspiracy. The reality is that if you objectively look at the Marauder class, it's current role in ROR, and don't know the "why" of how things came to be, even the newest player can tell something is off about this class.

There was a point in time where the Marauder's utility and surviavbility justified its damage. Those days passed us long ago. The issue however, is not that the Marauder needs more damage and to be homogenized into a bastardized version of the WL or something, the class just needs it's identity back to be "good at something" (and SW has a very similar issue).
Last edited by Foofmonger on Wed May 27, 2020 10:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

teiloh
Posts: 277

Re: thunderous blow

Post#46 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:35 pm

Destro needs a full stop on buffs. Period. Across the board, until some semblance of realm balance is returned. Realm balance is way, way off in favor of Destro. As for the damage stats you provided, you got MOT's low cont covered in a survey of AOE abilities. But if we're going to argue Marauders don't do enough burst or DPS compared to say, Witch Elves, we're going to need to do a side-by-side to see if that actually bears out in reality. My suspicion is that it's a lot closer than people are letting on, because I'd rather deal with/heal through any WE than a Brut/Sav Marauder any day.

I'm not a purist to Mythic's vision. In every MMO, there are however elements of the game that reflect professional testing and long cycles of feedback and testing - which inevitably get wrecked by horrible suggestions from bad players.

Keep in mind when I floated the Magus/Engi buff I idea I also recommended they make pet summon instant with a 2s build time and a 30 foot range, and reduce BOC/Snipe range to 125 to compensate for the added range.

I also recommended that they not go the stat contribution route that they took with WL/Squig pets and instead raised stats on each turret on an individual basis, while re-evaluating the Flamer, Flame Turret and Blue Horror's abilities.

They only took parts of the suggestion.

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wildwindblows
Posts: 172

Re: thunderous blow

Post#47 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:44 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:15 pm
teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:56 pm
Keep in mind, I play SW and Magus here and I don't even believe they need much of a damage or "burst" increase if any at all, so that's my baseline. I don't think any class really needs a major damage buff, in fact.
I also don't think the Marauder needs a damage buff at all, and I mostly agree with your statement in general. The SW clearly has some issues, but it's not raw DPS that is the classes main issue at the moment.

Look, I totally get why you come into these threads and do what you do. I understand wanting to ensure the game is balanced properly. You are just way off when it comes to the Marauder class and what this class can do and how it functions. What you aren't way off on is that the class doesn't need massive buffs. I actually tend to agree with you on many of the Marauder suggestions/balance proposals, they are usually quite terrible and/or overpowered suggestions.

However, what I don't agree with you on is that the class needs nothing. It definitely could use some small QOL tweaks as many classes could in this game to make it more viable in more settings. It may even need to get some nerfs, to get those tweaks (to the point of utility/survivability and trade offs), and again, that's fine. But what irks me is to read your hyberpole about things like "undeserved damage buffs" (even post buff, Mara damage is still low/medium in comparison to all other DPS classes), and that "the pull is good", and **** like that. You can make your points without implying that the class is perfect and needs no tweaks ever, because that's a bad take and I know you know that it's not correct. Making illogical arguments that the Mara "shouldn't" do WL levels of burst because of their "extra survivability" is just such a silly take. That's not why the Marauder shouldn't do WL levels of burst, there's actually a few good reasons why it shouldn't but monstro proc isn't the reason, as stated above, Pounce alone is far better than Monstro proc can ever be (unless Monstro proc allows you to teleport across the battlefield as a get out of jailf free card).

So I hope you understand my viewpoint. I'm not agreeing with the other Marauders, nor am I agreeing with you. I have a different viewpoint, somewhere in the middle of these two extremes that "the glass is garbage" and "the class is perfect". Neither of these extreme hybperbolic opinions is realistic at all. The truth is that the class is "ok", and it's fine to play, it's not junk, nor is it amazing. Maybe that's ok and we should be proposing to bring other classes down to the reality that is the Marauder's level of balance (I think this is more your viewpoint), rather than to try to take the Marauder up to levels of overbalance (not my viewpoint either).

I do recall you saying that you were a purist to Mythic's vision, so I am a little confused on how that relates to your Marauder opinions, since you don't seem to want to take the class back to the original vision of it on live (I think I know why, for good reasons). In theory, you should be for the TB swap back to where it was originally, as that was the design of the class by Mythic no (well, to be fair, the original TB was the most overpowered skill in the entire game, but almost nobody remembers it now).
I totally agree with you. TB was the most powerfull wound db in the game and it sound like a lot. However, the truth is mara has only these debuffs and now mara lost the one of the strongest debuff ability and this was not compensated in any way.

Foofmonger
Posts: 436

Re: thunderous blow

Post#48 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:47 pm

teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:35 pm
Destro needs a full stop on buffs. Period. Across the board, until some semblance of realm balance is returned. Realm balance is way, way off in favor of Destro. As for the damage stats you provided, you got MOT's low cont covered in a survey of AOE abilities. But if we're going to argue Marauders don't do enough burst or DPS compared to say, Witch Elves, we're going to need to do a side-by-side to see if that actually bears out in reality. My suspicion is that it's a lot closer than people are letting on, because I'd rather deal with/heal through any WE than a Brut/Sav Marauder any day.
That's entirely fair, and balance should always be a goal that is worked towards. I'm happy to get more realm balance, and if that needs to happen prior to any Destro buffs, then it is what it is. It shouldn't however "preclude" any destro buffs from ever being on the table, just fix Order first.

Keep in mind when I floated the Magus/Engi buff I idea I also recommended they make pet summon instant with a 2s build time and a 30 foot range, and reduce BOC/Snipe range to 125 to compensate for the added range.

I also recommended that they not go the stat contribution route that they took with WL/Squig pets and instead raised stats on each turret on an individual basis, while re-evaluating the Flamer, Flame Turret and Blue Horror's abilities.

They only took parts of the suggestion.
Just how it goes sometimes. I try to also be realistic in my balance proposals and not just hamfist buffs on where they aren't needed. I think you saw my post in the Deadly Clutch/Tainted Claw thread where I proposed moving TC to a 13 point ability and got a ton of flak from both Marauder and Order players, some of which saying I was "killing the Marauder class" and other people saying I was making it "too OP". I was of course, doing neither of those things.

I'd much rather have you have some experience with the Marauder class, so you can make some informed statements due to personal experience. I just think you are slightly off, and I think the best solution is not me telling you that, but you experiencing it for yourself. I would be money that if you were to play the class, you would slightly change some of your opinions of how it functions and how strong it is. It's just a class that's better on paper than in practice in the current environment.

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Foofmonger
Posts: 436

Re: thunderous blow

Post#49 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:53 pm

wildwindblows wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:44 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 10:15 pm
teiloh wrote:
Wed May 27, 2020 9:56 pm
Keep in mind, I play SW and Magus here and I don't even believe they need much of a damage or "burst" increase if any at all, so that's my baseline. I don't think any class really needs a major damage buff, in fact.
I also don't think the Marauder needs a damage buff at all, and I mostly agree with your statement in general. The SW clearly has some issues, but it's not raw DPS that is the classes main issue at the moment.

Look, I totally get why you come into these threads and do what you do. I understand wanting to ensure the game is balanced properly. You are just way off when it comes to the Marauder class and what this class can do and how it functions. What you aren't way off on is that the class doesn't need massive buffs. I actually tend to agree with you on many of the Marauder suggestions/balance proposals, they are usually quite terrible and/or overpowered suggestions.

However, what I don't agree with you on is that the class needs nothing. It definitely could use some small QOL tweaks as many classes could in this game to make it more viable in more settings. It may even need to get some nerfs, to get those tweaks (to the point of utility/survivability and trade offs), and again, that's fine. But what irks me is to read your hyberpole about things like "undeserved damage buffs" (even post buff, Mara damage is still low/medium in comparison to all other DPS classes), and that "the pull is good", and **** like that. You can make your points without implying that the class is perfect and needs no tweaks ever, because that's a bad take and I know you know that it's not correct. Making illogical arguments that the Mara "shouldn't" do WL levels of burst because of their "extra survivability" is just such a silly take. That's not why the Marauder shouldn't do WL levels of burst, there's actually a few good reasons why it shouldn't but monstro proc isn't the reason, as stated above, Pounce alone is far better than Monstro proc can ever be (unless Monstro proc allows you to teleport across the battlefield as a get out of jailf free card).

So I hope you understand my viewpoint. I'm not agreeing with the other Marauders, nor am I agreeing with you. I have a different viewpoint, somewhere in the middle of these two extremes that "the glass is garbage" and "the class is perfect". Neither of these extreme hybperbolic opinions is realistic at all. The truth is that the class is "ok", and it's fine to play, it's not junk, nor is it amazing. Maybe that's ok and we should be proposing to bring other classes down to the reality that is the Marauder's level of balance (I think this is more your viewpoint), rather than to try to take the Marauder up to levels of overbalance (not my viewpoint either).

I do recall you saying that you were a purist to Mythic's vision, so I am a little confused on how that relates to your Marauder opinions, since you don't seem to want to take the class back to the original vision of it on live (I think I know why, for good reasons). In theory, you should be for the TB swap back to where it was originally, as that was the design of the class by Mythic no (well, to be fair, the original TB was the most overpowered skill in the entire game, but almost nobody remembers it now).
I totally agree with you. TB was the most powerfull wound db in the game and it sound like a lot. However, the truth is mara has only these debuffs and now mara lost the one of the strongest debuff ability and this was not compensated in any way.
Well not just TB, it's been a long trend of this even before ROR.

Almost every single one of the Marauder's debuffs has been heavily nerfed. Some of them for very good reasons. However, they were probably in general slightly over-nerfed. The Marauder should likely still have "good debuffs", not just "the same as everyone else and sometimes worse".

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Grock
Posts: 596

Re: thunderous blow

Post#50 » Wed May 27, 2020 10:53 pm

I aint gonna read this whole thread, but the point is in its current nerfed state Thunderous Blow is completely irrelevant because other classes bring equal or better functionality with easier access, so why would anyone ever spec it outside of solo play?

Its not a question of giving destro more stuff, it is about making the ability a competitive choice when considering your build.
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