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Long Overdue WE/WH

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1814

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#21 » Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:26 pm

Huurl wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:59 pm
I forgot the name of the tactic that gave 5% crit chance by Blood Lust/Accusation... but it is painfully missing.
Going for AOE do not feel like the point or a solution. Lot of toons can have single build or aoe build (Sorc/BW, Choppa/slayer, etc.) that's fine and allow you to adjut your gameplay regarding the situation if you are going for Orvr, city, scenarii...
WE/WH can't do that since the Aoe options will always be less efficient. And that's fine as long you can have threatening single target burst. Unfortunatelly now any player who is able to detaunt has nothing to fear from a WE/WH...
WE/WH are light mdps who "kill or die". Nowadays to die is really easy (melee and light armor guarded or not) while to kill is absurdly difficult.

It saddens me since I played WE since release but I reroll sorc now to be usefull to my mate.

Main problems;
you lack AoE needed to clear challenge (enjoy that -30% outgoing dmg), something which other melee/ranged clear very fast (except SW lul)
This would not matter if your base attacks were 30% higher to begin with (they aren't).
The crit chances have been butchered throroughly for both classes over the years (Frenzied Mayhem nuked) and Order generic crit nerfs (Dirty Tricks, Leading Shots...).
Stealth is in the top 3 useless mechanics when it comes to endgame, competing for top spots with AM/Shaman mystery mechanic and Kotb/Chosen "maybe I'll remember to activate my almonds/auras". (well pets are also either too OP or beyond useless, instashot or pugkillers). Stealth allows sneaking on inexperienced pugs and ganking of occasional lowbies or a shaman on shrooms, but any decent healer will just detaunt and carry on spamming /lol emotes.
The funniest part is then years of ROR tweaking where you get endgame balance where Mara AOE provides similar pressure as WE ST dmg. (almost similar absurdity can be found with AoE WL proc stack + high armor pen + high mobility vs WH crawling behind trying to keep up with the rest of the fast moving mixed AoE+STburst melee train)

The question remains, why do majority of classes have access to both good ST+AoE pressure builds, and others have to do with just ST builds.
Or maybe that would not be a problem if the WE/WH ST dmg pressure was miles ahead of the ST pressure the other 6 melee classes provide (including MSH and ASW).

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Wdova
Posts: 524

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#22 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:14 am

[
Spoiler:
quote=Marawo post_id=418964 time=1591274831 user_id=139723]
@roadkillrobin

Trial by pain and ruthless assault aoe capabilities were OP especially when blessed blade/bleeding edge tactics were introducded there was no way both could coexist hence why they got patched out pretty soon after (I think 1 week later or so).
FYI those tactics refreshed their next 3 sec 50% armorpierce during the channel of those abilities which meant for a witch with self WS buff cutting through incredible amounts of armor.

Witchhunter was even stronger in my opinion due to vindication and sanctified bullet tactic, 35% damage buff which you could proc more reliably due to the high sustain sanctified bullets gave you. In large number fights you could solo flank a wb no healer no guard required and jolt yourself for 2-3k hp every 10 sec DG and 2-3k hp twice over a TbP channel (TbP procs bullets twice) every 8 sec. Add in 7 sec 100% disrupt, 5 sec 100% parry and aoe detaunt to sustain while TbP and DG are on CD. You were almost unkillable or forced the enemy blob to focus you which meant they die to whatever threat they should have been fighting instead. Now imagine this with 24 aoe cap instead of 9target and going x-100% with every DG or TbP in their relative short CD's.

e.:
About Broad severing/sweeping razor the justification for lowering it to 3 targets was it dropping down from a 11pt tactic to a core tactic and being compared to lotsa choppin/accuracy from Chp/SL which was considered an unfair investment for an equal effect (spammable base attack hitting 9 targets for 1 tactic slot but reduced damage).

Now the CHP/SL tactics are at 24 targets (which is stupidly OP in any funnel and is making the strongest funnel class even stronger but that's just my opinion) sweeping razor/Broad severing should be brought back into discussion, upping their target limit would make them somewhat capable in that regard but still fall off far from the proper aoe mdps classes.
[/quote]
This is such a nice theory crafting. Wet dream where one unguarded and unhealed WH/WE force warband to turn and melt single and unkilable light armor mdps with 2-3k self heal each 10 seconds.

Even if You pop all of your cooldowns at same time, You wouldnt survive for longer than 5s.

There are no plans for WE/WH in near future probably thanks to lack of resources and time. That is all I wanted to read. I will continue to play it, because I like challenge and playing WE/WH is truly hardcore mode currently.

dirnsterer
Posts: 145

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#23 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:25 am

Aurandilaz wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:26 pm
The question remains, why do majority of classes have access to both good ST+AoE pressure builds, and others have to do with just ST builds.
Or maybe that would not be a problem if the WE/WH ST dmg pressure was miles ahead of the ST pressure the other 6 melee classes provide (including MSH and ASW).
Pretty much this, every other mdps gets all of the cake. They have cool aoe abilities (sorry ASW) and good single target abilities. Then there is this one archetype with gimped class mechanic, with no proper AoE to assist with and similiar level of ST damage than most melee dps. Maybe higher than mara, but less than WL, these two classes have good AoE builds also though. Then on top of that being forever in a light armor (Slayer and Choppa can use brainpower and drop rage to increase survivability to medium armor). So if WE / WH is destined to be pidgeon holed into single target specialty class, make that single target a force to be reckoned with.

anarchypark
Posts: 1564

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#24 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:58 am

stealth + aoe? nice.
SM8, SW8, AM7, WL4, KoBS5, BW4, WP8, WH4, IB4, EG3, RP4, SL5
BG7, Sorc6, DoK7, WE7, Cs7, Mg7, Ze6, Mara6, BO4, SH4, Shm5, Chop3
SC summary - viewtopic.php?f=8&t=20415
( last update : 2020.06.09)

agemennon675
Posts: 96

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#25 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:32 am

anarchypark wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:58 am
stealth + aoe? nice.
Meanwhile out of 4 xMirror classes (SW,SH,Mara,WL) only SW sitting there without aoe, apart from 1 with 20 sec cooldown on top.

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Marawo
Posts: 108

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#26 » Fri Jun 05, 2020 8:49 am

Wdova wrote:
Fri Jun 05, 2020 7:14 am
Marawo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 12:47 pm
... 2-3k hp every 10 sec DG and 2-3k hp twice over a TbP channel (TbP procs bullets twice) every 8 sec.
This is such a nice theory crafting. Wet dream where one unguarded and unhealed WH/WE force warband to turn and melt single and unkilable light armor mdps with 2-3k self heal each 10 seconds.
1+2=1 no point to argue beyond that really.
Played the spec, was extremely busted from a suviveability aspect.
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velenne
Posts: 38

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#27 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:54 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:01 pm
Deifact wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:33 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:05 pm
There's no buffs on the horizon for either class mirror.
Just out of interest, is this because the classes don't need any or because there is a lack of resources/ other projects are seen as more important?
Every class could use a little something if we dig into them. Other priorities are up first. We have some backlog already and adding more can be distracting. My statement wasn't to dismiss any discussion on them, but to set expectations that we're not likely to make significant changes in the near future.
That makes me super sad. There have been several lively discussions recently in the Empire forum about the sad state of WH, with lots of great feedback and ideas, especially as it pertains to the unclear vision of the class.

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wargrimnir
Head Game Master
Posts: 6447
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Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#28 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:07 pm

velenne wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:54 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 4:01 pm
Deifact wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:33 pm


Just out of interest, is this because the classes don't need any or because there is a lack of resources/ other projects are seen as more important?
Every class could use a little something if we dig into them. Other priorities are up first. We have some backlog already and adding more can be distracting. My statement wasn't to dismiss any discussion on them, but to set expectations that we're not likely to make significant changes in the near future.
That makes me super sad. There have been several lively discussions recently in the Empire forum about the sad state of WH, with lots of great feedback and ideas, especially as it pertains to the unclear vision of the class.
One of the common things that people seem to spin around on is a desire to have some AOE focused build. We've dismissed that in the past, it's simply not a function that WH or WE performs outside of a few abilities. One such ability was quietly used in combination with a bug, that's what set off a lot of people to start their forum threads about poor balance. Many other conversations about building class identity are far more interesting to follow, but this AOE stuff always comes up. I feel if I were to jump into each thread to crush that desire we wouldn't get nearly as much conversation related to other aspects of the class.

When we do eventually get around to a balance pass for WH/WE, chances are the people who have kept a measured response to the state of the class will be listened to over doomsayers. WE/WH really excels in one thing, stealth. No one else has that one thing, nothing comes close to it. It's not a function that will put them over the top in 6v6, it's not a function that has strong demand in the current warband meta, but it's still a uniquely powerful ability, and core to the class identity. AOE is certainly not. That's broadly why we're comfortable with the (perhaps situationally underpeforming) state of the class, although again, anything could have improvements made when we get a chance to focus on them.
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Anjanolian
Legacy RR80
Posts: 119

Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#29 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:08 pm

Marawo wrote:
Thu Jun 04, 2020 1:56 pm
What WE/WH actually need is a better campaign.
Currently there is almost no campaign impact in regular zones from ganking enemy players while a siege is going on because there is no meaningful supply deterioration once a keep hit their 2 star (as attacker) or 3star (as defender) benchmark. It's also way to easy to circumvent being stopped from getting to the keep due to the "lol just release inside keep" effect.
Regular zones make up the majority of the rvr campaign and most of this time is spent in largescale fights or sieges rendering ganking/smallscale as a very unimpactful playstyle which WE/WH are catered towards to. Removing the ability to just release inside keep after the siege started would provide so much potential to make a meaningful difference in the siege outcome for a gankclass who has very little use compared to other classes in the actual siege.
+1
...Bride of Khaine...

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Greywolfamakir
Posts: 31
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Re: Long Overdue WE/WH

Post#30 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:19 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:07 pm

One of the common things that people seem to spin around on is a desire to have some AOE focused build. We've dismissed that in the past, it's simply not a function that WH or WE performs outside of a few abilities. One such ability was quietly used in combination with a bug, that's what set off a lot of people to start their forum threads about poor balance. Many other conversations about building class identity are far more interesting to follow, but this AOE stuff always comes up. I feel if I were to jump into each thread to crush that desire we wouldn't get nearly as much conversation related to other aspects of the class.

When we do eventually get around to a balance pass for WH/WE, chances are the people who have kept a measured response to the state of the class will be listened to over doomsayers. WE/WH really excels in one thing, stealth. No one else has that one thing, nothing comes close to it. It's not a function that will put them over the top in 6v6, it's not a function that has strong demand in the current warband meta, but it's still a uniquely powerful ability, and core to the class identity. AOE is certainly not. That's broadly why we're comfortable with the (perhaps situationally underpeforming) state of the class, although again, anything could have improvements made when we get a chance to focus on them.
Thank you very much for that kind of information. Like a WH player (RR 80 with a lot of hours) i really appreciate it. It's good to know what is going on behind scenes.

I totally agree that AoE is not something where WH/WE should be "good" at, but since best gear in the game comes from AoE scenarios, i mean, 24v24, WH/WE feels bad on that kind of situations.

I don't think that WH/WE need AoE, but to accomplish its main role like "assassins", they should deal a bit more ST damage. Its almost imposible to kill any geared healer 1v1, when i think WE/WH should be able to kill them.

Some QoL could be great too, like:

-Reduce stealth cast time
-Lower CD on stealth
-Longer duration on "Vanish" stealth (Sanctified oil / Elixir of Shadows)
Last edited by Greywolfamakir on Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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