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The Сampaign is not rewarding.

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Lithenir
Posts: 185

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#21 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:12 am

Brickson wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:39 am
Spoiler:
Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:50 am
nat3s wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:59 am



The system isn't balanced, it's much easier to progress campaign to a city west coast US TZ when the zones are like 90vs50. During EU prime it can be 400vs300 which is much more difficult. A single guild can be really impactful in late US TZ, not so much EU prime.
You mentioned the problem of "no city in eu prime" right there. I find it fascinating that after all these weeks since sieges are implemented people still cry that it is unfair only us timezones get cities. Yet people refuse to multipush zones to force defenders splitting forces. Instead of doing so everyone is in one time while all other zones are dead and you wonder why no city is up during eu prime while you fight with 400 vs 394.... Well guess why? I tell you why, people want to play brain afk instead of really using tactics to split enemy forces so everyone is in one Zone...

Use your brain if you want eu city.
By saying that people should put in way more effort during EU prime time to organize to accomplish a city siege, because the system isn't able to handle large amounts of people as well as small numbers you're just proving his point that the system isn't balanced.

Wherever you have a system, in which humans act/interact, you have to design it in a way that takes into account how humans behave. This is true for all designs. Being it games, workplaces, door handles or whatever. If your first reaction always is to blame the people for not doing it right, you're just choosing the laziest explanation and will never actually improve anything.

I don't have a good solution at hand. Neither do I want to blame the devs for the current state nor demand a quick change. But just blaming the players instead of acknowledging a design problem is just too simple minded.

Thesis: Telling people to git gud/just organize/use brain is the brain afking of forums :P
Well I've seen it on live for years, the same campaign as it is now and people used tactic and strategies to get what they wanted. Back then people were smart enough to split forces and attack multiple zones the same time.

So when the campaign is still the same but people here tend to be in one zone only, leaving the other 2 dead which fault is it? Ofc it must be the campaigns fault because it is too hard to take zones with 600 players and I just want to be brain afk but want all the rewards... Well it isn't working that way.

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nuadarstark
Posts: 115

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#22 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:39 am

I mean, double pushing is nothing new and not something "stupid EU people" aren't doing. People are doing EXACTLY that during stalemates. But if you have 400 people in orvr, on either side the can shift around rather easily, especially since everyone and their mother are using SoR and War Report.

Once you start sieging in an empty zone, the other side will notice and follow. Then you have 2 zones with 200 people from either faction each and you're in the same exact spot.

But sure, blame all the braindead people...
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nat3s
Posts: 269

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#23 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:56 am

Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:12 am
Brickson wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:39 am
Spoiler:
Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:50 am


You mentioned the problem of "no city in eu prime" right there. I find it fascinating that after all these weeks since sieges are implemented people still cry that it is unfair only us timezones get cities. Yet people refuse to multipush zones to force defenders splitting forces. Instead of doing so everyone is in one time while all other zones are dead and you wonder why no city is up during eu prime while you fight with 400 vs 394.... Well guess why? I tell you why, people want to play brain afk instead of really using tactics to split enemy forces so everyone is in one Zone...

Use your brain if you want eu city.
By saying that people should put in way more effort during EU prime time to organize to accomplish a city siege, because the system isn't able to handle large amounts of people as well as small numbers you're just proving his point that the system isn't balanced.

Wherever you have a system, in which humans act/interact, you have to design it in a way that takes into account how humans behave. This is true for all designs. Being it games, workplaces, door handles or whatever. If your first reaction always is to blame the people for not doing it right, you're just choosing the laziest explanation and will never actually improve anything.

I don't have a good solution at hand. Neither do I want to blame the devs for the current state nor demand a quick change. But just blaming the players instead of acknowledging a design problem is just too simple minded.

Thesis: Telling people to git gud/just organize/use brain is the brain afking of forums :P
Well I've seen it on live for years, the same campaign as it is now and people used tactic and strategies to get what they wanted. Back then people were smart enough to split forces and attack multiple zones the same time.

So when the campaign is still the same but people here tend to be in one zone only, leaving the other 2 dead which fault is it? Ofc it must be the campaigns fault because it is too hard to take zones with 600 players and I just want to be brain afk but want all the rewards... Well it isn't working that way.

Look you're wrong on all levels here. You'll see from my sig I'm in PNP which is one of the more organised EU Destro guilds on the server. We regularly coordinate our WB nights (3 nights a week) with the other big Destro EU guilds like TUP to push zones. The other night between the coordinated Destro guilds we had 10 WBs up and running with comms between leaders.... And still we couldn't reach a City. These are guilds that destroy the best Order has to offer at present. This sounds terrible so apologies, but PNP hasn't lost to a city to an Order guild in many months and we've faced the likes of Bombling and that WL AoE WB the players names from which I forget.

If PNP played during late US TZ I'm telling you we'd be farming daily cities as it's so much easier to reach a city during off peak hours with low pop.

Late US TZ doesn't get cities because they play better, they get them because defensive strength currently scales with more people online because a keep/fort main door funnel allow roughly 5 people per second to pass through no matter how many attackers you have - where keep/fort defender strength continues to scale with each additional player meaning those 5 people funnelling need to absorb more and more punishment. Around 200 defenders and things get really tough for the attackers.

What you're also missing is splitting zones helps you get a Fort.... BUT you still need to cap that fort, if defenders win a fort then the campaign resets. So at some point EU prime attackers need to break a 300+ person fort def.

The game either needs other ways to earn Sov which is equally fair to all timezones or some kind of way to address the problem of offensive strength not scaling with additionl players: perhaps have additional entrances to a fort/keep open up as the number of players in a zone increases.
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saupreusse
Former Staff
Posts: 2104

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#24 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:29 pm

My suggestion is to reward players with royals/invader after a city happened based on their contribution in the campaign. This way i could push zones all night, go to sleep, let the city happen and still get rewarded with the currency i earned by spending the whole evening in rvr. Id say a cap of 6 royals/invaders for lots of contribution would be fair because its exactly the middle between 3 (lost city worst case) or 9 (won city best case).
Edit: ofc prices for these sets should be tuned up accordingly.

User avatar
Lithenir
Posts: 185

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#25 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:40 pm

nuadarstark wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:39 am
I mean, double pushing is nothing new and not something "stupid EU people" aren't doing. People are doing EXACTLY that during stalemates. But if you have 400 people in orvr, on either side the can shift around rather easily, especially since everyone and their mother are using SoR and War Report.

Once you start sieging in an empty zone, the other side will notice and follow. Then you have 2 zones with 200 people from either faction each and you're in the same exact spot.

But sure, blame all the braindead people...
Well... No. People are not doing it. Usually you have 400 vs 350 in one zone, so nothing happens. Then people start to leave for another zone leaving 50 players behind in the zone. So now you have the same thing in another zone and the populated zone from before is almost dead again. Then people switching to the third zone leaving the previous zones dead.

That's not tactic or strategy it's just the same in another zone. The blob is just too strong and people need to realize that blobbing in only one zone is bad.

User avatar
Lithenir
Posts: 185

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#26 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:45 pm

Spoiler:
nat3s wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:56 am
Lithenir wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 11:12 am
Brickson wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 9:39 am
Spoiler:
By saying that people should put in way more effort during EU prime time to organize to accomplish a city siege, because the system isn't able to handle large amounts of people as well as small numbers you're just proving his point that the system isn't balanced.

Wherever you have a system, in which humans act/interact, you have to design it in a way that takes into account how humans behave. This is true for all designs. Being it games, workplaces, door handles or whatever. If your first reaction always is to blame the people for not doing it right, you're just choosing the laziest explanation and will never actually improve anything.

I don't have a good solution at hand. Neither do I want to blame the devs for the current state nor demand a quick change. But just blaming the players instead of acknowledging a design problem is just too simple minded.

Thesis: Telling people to git gud/just organize/use brain is the brain afking of forums :P
Well I've seen it on live for years, the same campaign as it is now and people used tactic and strategies to get what they wanted. Back then people were smart enough to split forces and attack multiple zones the same time.

So when the campaign is still the same but people here tend to be in one zone only, leaving the other 2 dead which fault is it? Ofc it must be the campaigns fault because it is too hard to take zones with 600 players and I just want to be brain afk but want all the rewards... Well it isn't working that way.

Look you're wrong on all levels here. You'll see from my sig I'm in PNP which is one of the more organised EU Destro guilds on the server. We regularly coordinate our WB nights (3 nights a week) with the other big Destro EU guilds like TUP to push zones. The other night between the coordinated Destro guilds we had 10 WBs up and running with comms between leaders.... And still we couldn't reach a City. These are guilds that destroy the best Order has to offer at present. This sounds terrible so apologies, but PNP hasn't lost to a city to an Order guild in many months and we've faced the likes of Bombling and that WL AoE WB the players names from which I forget.

If PNP played during late US TZ I'm telling you we'd be farming daily cities as it's so much easier to reach a city during off peak hours with low pop.

Late US TZ doesn't get cities because they play better, they get them because defensive strength currently scales with more people online because a keep/fort main door funnel allow roughly 5 people per second to pass through no matter how many attackers you have - where keep/fort defender strength continues to scale with each additional player meaning those 5 people funnelling need to absorb more and more punishment. Around 200 defenders and things get really tough for the attackers.

What you're also missing is splitting zones helps you get a Fort.... BUT you still need to cap that fort, if defenders win a fort then the campaign resets. So at some point EU prime attackers need to break a 300+ person fort def.

The game either needs other ways to earn Sov which is equally fair to all timezones or some kind of way to address the problem of offensive strength not scaling with additionl players: perhaps have additional entrances to a fort/keep open up as the number of players in a zone increases.
Look since I am eu player myself I know you guys. And still I am not wrong.

If you have too many defenders split your forces and siege another zone at the same time. If you are as awesome as you think you should be able to hold most defenders in their keep so other people can take mostly undefended zones.... But wait for that to happen you would have to sacrifice potential rewards. Guess that option is out also...

And btw for a fort to have 300 defenders the attackers would need 400 players since fort defenders cap is at 75% of the attackers. The last forts I have seen had 240 attackers and 180 defenders.

User avatar
boomcat
Posts: 130

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#27 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:24 pm

i can support a system awarding players for like a inf bar filling trough campaign and you get rewards after that end of the week/day.. will make people who try push zones get something, and not letting city loggers taking all.. but system wise, it will just be MUCH easy for the devs to swallow there pride and let Invader/crest drops from high RR players in RvR... would blow life in the lakes again and make people engage more.

Jesden
Posts: 31

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#28 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:53 pm

boomcat wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:24 pm
i can support a system awarding players for like a inf bar filling trough campaign and you get rewards after that end of the week/day.. will make people who try push zones get something, and not letting city loggers taking all.. but system wise, it will just be MUCH easy for the devs to swallow there pride and let Invader/crest drops from high RR players in RvR... would blow life in the lakes again and make people engage more.
Would be a case of creating a new event that repeats weekly rather than cycling through. Shouldn't take too much effort. But the Devs have said they have other plans in the works before looking at this, which is understandable.

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boomcat
Posts: 130

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#29 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:57 pm

Jesden wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:53 pm
boomcat wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:24 pm
i can support a system awarding players for like a inf bar filling trough campaign and you get rewards after that end of the week/day.. will make people who try push zones get something, and not letting city loggers taking all.. but system wise, it will just be MUCH easy for the devs to swallow there pride and let Invader/crest drops from high RR players in RvR... would blow life in the lakes again and make people engage more.
Would be a case of creating a new event that repeats weekly rather than cycling through. Shouldn't take too much effort. But the Devs have said they have other plans in the works before looking at this, which is understandable.
ye its understandable for sure. if you dont wanna keep your playerbase.. and just wanna try new things ingame.. players will keep dropping when they get irretatet enough. none of these players who wanna get some rewards from there effort and never see citys dont care about new arena or Ranked.

User avatar
madmatics
Posts: 11

Re: The Сampaign is not rewarding.

Post#30 » Thu Jun 18, 2020 3:08 pm

Not posting often here, but this topic is really sensitive for a lot of players at the moment in my impression. At least speaking for myself.

Being a more or less casual EU player, I strongly believe this approach below would be a sensible and balanced solution to keep players active and incentivized to engage both in oRvR and of course Cities. The latter should remain the most important "end game". However, there should be a reasonable reward around for campaign contribution to keep progress going for a large share of the player base (even if that turns out to be much slower than running cities at 3am in the night). This does not necessarily need to come along with an overly compensation or inflation of tokens or even fixed city times, like proposed elsewhere.
saupreusse wrote:
Thu Jun 18, 2020 12:29 pm
My suggestion is to reward players with royals/invader after a city happened based on their contribution in the campaign. This way i could push zones all night, go to sleep, let the city happen and still get rewarded with the currency i earned by spending the whole evening in rvr. Id say a cap of 6 royals/invaders for lots of contribution would be fair because its exactly the middle between 3 (lost city worst case) or 9 (won city best case).
Edit: ofc prices for these sets should be tuned up accordingly.

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