Return of Reckoning

rulke32 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:10 pm

Nekkma wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 1:23 pm Giving dok/wp arguably the best single target heal in the game was perhaps the most horrible class balance change in a long list of horrible class changes on live.

Are you doing something wrong? **** heals for much more than a group heal. Can crit for 1500-1700 in 1/4 of the time than other single target heals. Not saying it needs to be nerfed, but it is really good for out of group people.

sogeou wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:38 pm Are you doing something wrong? **** heals for much more than a group heal. Can crit for 1500-1700 in 1/4 of the time than other single target heals. Not saying it needs to be nerfed, but it is really good for out of group people.

Actualy it can crit even for 2400, but honestly any focused target is usualy healing debuffed by 50% so it goes down to 1200 on CRIT. Meanwhile RP has spammable 1k crit on instant no CD one, with chance to trigger absorb shield.

M0rw47h wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:44 pm

Spoiler:

sogeou wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:38 pm Are you doing something wrong? **** heals for much more than a group heal. Can crit for 1500-1700 in 1/4 of the time than other single target heals. Not saying it needs to be nerfed, but it is really good for out of group people.

Actualy it can crit even for 2400, but honestly any focused target is usualy healing debuffed by 50% so it goes down to 1200 on CRIT. Meanwhile RP has spammable 1k crit on instant no CD one, with chance to trigger absorb shield.

2400 hp....that numbers are only realistic for order side (with all those +% heal bonus you have), but not for the destro side...iirc on my dok the crits are around 1500 hp.

For sure, isnt the "best ST heal in game" => as others said, ZE/RP have instant st heal wich heals like this one...and also can proc abs shield or +25% heal buff.

I did refer to live tho and added ”arguably”. It is heal without resource cost, low cast time, heal for close to the supposedly single target healers 2 second fragile heal and cowered the one weakness dok/wp had. All that with a short cd. It was for sure the best st heal and I still think you can make the argument it is the best st heal given that context.

On topic, I don’t think healing in general need to be reduced. Tweaked perhaps but not reduced.

emiliorv wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:59 pm

M0rw47h wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:44 pm

Spoiler:

sogeou wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:38 pm Are you doing something wrong? **** heals for much more than a group heal. Can crit for 1500-1700 in 1/4 of the time than other single target heals. Not saying it needs to be nerfed, but it is really good for out of group people.

Actualy it can crit even for 2400, but honestly any focused target is usualy healing debuffed by 50% so it goes down to 1200 on CRIT. Meanwhile RP has spammable 1k crit on instant no CD one, with chance to trigger absorb shield.

2400 hp....that numbers are only realistic for order side (with all those +% heal bonus you have), but not for the destro side...iirc on my dok the crits are around 1500 hp.

For sure, isnt the "best ST heal in game" => as others said, ZE/RP have instant st heal wich heals like this one...and also can proc abs shield or +25% heal buff.

That's two tactics tho

emiliorv wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:59 pm

M0rw47h wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:44 pm

Spoiler:

sogeou wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:38 pm Are you doing something wrong? **** heals for much more than a group heal. Can crit for 1500-1700 in 1/4 of the time than other single target heals. Not saying it needs to be nerfed, but it is really good for out of group people.

Actualy it can crit even for 2400, but honestly any focused target is usualy healing debuffed by 50% so it goes down to 1200 on CRIT. Meanwhile RP has spammable 1k crit on instant no CD one, with chance to trigger absorb shield.

2400 hp....that numbers are only realistic for order side (with all those +% heal bonus you have), but not for the destro side...iirc on my dok the crits are around 1500 hp.

For sure, isnt the "best ST heal in game" => as others said, ZE/RP have instant st heal wich heals like this one...and also can proc abs shield or +25% heal buff.

You can reach 2,4k crits on Khaine's Invigoration easyly. Even 3k is possible without softcapped wp. 1250 (baseheal for ca. 850 wp + 15p into heal tree)*1,55(max crit multiplyer)*(1+0.25 (Zealot healbuff)+0.25(Shaman Shrug it off)+0.15(Chosen tactic)) = 3k+ (with chosen m2 you reach numbers order can only dream of btw...)

blechkautz wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:10 pm

emiliorv wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:59 pm

M0rw47h wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 2:44 pm

Spoiler:

Actualy it can crit even for 2400, but honestly any focused target is usualy healing debuffed by 50% so it goes down to 1200 on CRIT. Meanwhile RP has spammable 1k crit on instant no CD one, with chance to trigger absorb shield.

2400 hp....that numbers are only realistic for order side (with all those +% heal bonus you have), but not for the destro side...iirc on my dok the crits are around 1500 hp.

For sure, isnt the "best ST heal in game" => as others said, ZE/RP have instant st heal wich heals like this one...and also can proc abs shield or +25% heal buff.

You can reach 2,4k crits on Khaine's Invigoration easyly. Even 3k is possible without softcapped wp. 1250 (baseheal for ca. 850 wp + 15p into heal tree)*1,55(max crit multiplyer)*(1+0.25 (Zealot healbuff)+0.25(Shaman Shrug it off)+0.15(Chosen tactic)) = 3k+ (with chosen m2 you reach numbers order can only dream of btw...)

Now just to find order trying to burst down a chosen with 3 healers next to him.

To the OP,
there used to be heal debuffs of 50% incomming heal that could be spread AOE... DOK/RP/Zealots
They were quite effective and basically mandatory to properly pressure stable warbands.
That AOE heal debuffs have been wrongly branded so called "pug killers" and removed early this year, despite strong opposittion from ALL major warband leaders with alot of experience. A simple nerf in their effectivity down to maybe 35% or a lower body count would have been a good enough compromise.

If you want to reduce healer performance now you have to combine heal debuff auras + ST outgoing heal debuffs and ST incomming heal debuffs + ap drain etc.. etc.. So good luck with that in orvr waaghy battles.
There are of course other tricks around stacked up mass group heal/cleanse. But again.. in engangements where you don't have control over free spreaded immunities and with all kind of speedbuffs it is simply imposible to split tanks from their guards.

Result of this remove are obvious. Choke points were healer are not reachable are almost unbreachable unless the defending realm gets flanked, as example Dwarf and Empire inner Keeps and basically all outer wall gatehouses are so narrow.. impossible.
The only reason why Forts are actually winable is the difference in numbers, the higher chance of unstable warbands defending, mass DC, wide doors and the skaven nuke. Still a good outer wall defense is unbreachable if coordinated properly.

Edit: I think it’s hard to find the right middle way between heal and dps performance. Fights are messy in RoR and many factors determine the outcome of a battle. On paper things might look cool but then in the practice it all might just blow to bits.


Lutz

madrocks wrote: ↑Mon Jul 06, 2020 11:28 pm To the OP,
there used to be heal debuffs of 50% incomming heal that could be spread AOE... DOK/RP/Zealots
They were quite effective and basically mandatory to properly pressure stable warbands

What I personally don't understand is why they left aoe heal debuff on DoK damage spec but removed it from RP and Zealots. Having a crit based heal debuff is absolutely appropriate on WP and DoK damage specs because it provides a special and unique incentive to bring them along for "support DPS," rather than raw damage numbers. But why butcher RP and Zealot DPS spec? They should also have that sort of "support DPS" style where they apply debuffs and indirect sorts of ways to make other peoples' damage more effective.

I only played the first six months or so of live, so I don't remember. Was the AoE heal debuff removed during live or was it removed by RoR devs? Because if the latter I think that was a really big mistake that should be rectified. As you say, an inability to sabotage healers (both because WH and WE are nerfed into the ground and have no real way to threaten healers in any organized setting and also a lack of an AoE heal debuff) makes certain defensive styles of play practically impervious.

The aoe heal debuff was removed from both DoK and RP/Zeal a couple of months ago here.