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Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

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Aurandilaz
Posts: 1828

Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#1 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:08 pm

I know this isnt balance discussion forums, but from past experience posting there achieves very little. While there is high chance all of this post will be ignored, I figured it would still be worth a try to post some ideas, even if there is 5% chance of something maybe getting implemented some day.
City balance is what it is, some classes are better, some less ideal. Both sides can win, even if Order on average is losing more. But having played circa 40+ Order cities and maybe 60+ Destro cities (being a filthy xrealmer with ever changing realm bias), and winning majority of them with occasional loses - the balance isn't too bad and mostly its organization and setup that decide outcome of most fights with occasional very tight fight between good warbands on both sides.
That being said, both sides have their weaker picks, and their "bit too strong" picks.
So, some ideas for improving the weaker picks;


Archmage + Shaman

Boon of Isha + Bigger Better n Greener ; allowed to cast these spells when on move

Desperation/Aint Dont Yet -
instead of low 25% remaining HP effect activation, below 50% is enough to enable extra healing. Reduce effect from +40% to +30%

Wild Healing -
after critical heal, you move 20% faster and your abilities cost 20% less AP - 3sec effect, 5s ICD

both of these classes tend to heal less than other healers, for a variety of reasons. AP is not an issue for AM in endgame gear, so changing Wild Healing to something that slightly improve their survivability and allows them to somewhat mimic Shaman survival options, would be something that maybe helps them against being the first to melt renown pinata.
The extra healing for low health targets is nice, but usually just not enough considering low threshold to trigger, and some targets simply vanishing between 25% HP left and a heal firing off. So increasing the trigger condition from 25% to 50%, but in turn reducing the healing modifier down to 30%.
BOI + BBAG are in theory good, but again casting a 2s fragile spell while standing still is rarely a good or safe option. Allowing these to be casted on move would help both classes somewhat.


WH/WE

Razor Strike
hits up to 3 targets up to 15ft in front of you
(no main target requirement, same as Flurry/Lotsa)

Slice
hits up to 3 targets up to 15ft in front of you
(no main target requirement, same as Flurry/Lotsa)

Sweeping Razor
Razor Strike will now hit up to 6 targets 20ft in front of you

Broad Severing
Slice will will now hit up to 6 targets 20ft in front of you

Both of these classes still lack a viable AoE spec for the endgame content which forces you into AoE fights - and while above changes do not make them into a real meta pick for warbands, the aim is to make them less "bad", even if just increasing target cap from 3 to 6 while reducing range, but removing the need to have a primary target at 5ft range in laggy fights. Not a massive balance change, but being able to hit 1/4th of the 24 AoE cap with a more limited AoE spammer - would enable both of these classes to be almost "decent" as city DPS picks. (WE Kiss procs still having ICD so max 1 proc per ability use, and WH still remains able to use Dragon Gun to hit 24 targets with Bullets)


Shadow Warrior

Distracting Rebounds now also reduces CD of Whirling Pin by 50%

ASW remains a strong pick for a ST assist train, and Skirmish is able to provide semi decent AoE pressure. This change would just slightly boost their survival and enable further utility potential as an AoE snare spammer. Their "mirror" mSH remains able to pounce around even as escape tool, so this change would mostly just provide further options for living longer.


Engi/Magus

Engi
new
Spanners Out
You deal 30% more dmg when within 30ft of your target and CD of Electromagnet is reduced by 50% but you will be unable to summon a turret

Magus
new
Chaotic Drifting
You deal 30% more dmg when within 30ft of your target and CD of Chaotic Rift is reduced by 50% but you will be unable to summon a minion

The reality is that pets just die, and a class that requires pet faces permanent handicap from having to keep spamming a pet which melts after a few hits and does not receive group heals (with most UIs/addons not providing healers option to ST heal pets)
WL and MSH already play in cities without pet, so this change would just bring magus/engi to the same state of balance.
Both classes would be able to do semi decent dmg at close range fights, and as tradeoff for losing all the pet utility potential, the AoE pull option would be improved and useable more often.
Not ideal solution, but currently 95% of time the classes are waste of spot due to broken pet mechanic in a fast moving melee fight with limited options for keeping pet safe and alive.
These new core tactics would mimics Loner/TerritorialAggression a bit, with a mix of old Close Quarters where dmg relies on staying close to the enemies at the frontlines.


nerfs needed:

Mara

Demolition no longer requires any mutation

Meaning it will not benefit from 50% exra arm pen tactic option on your main spammer, your other abilities will hit just fine but your AOE spamemr wont carve open tanks.
Mara is the main offender in current endgame balance.
A class cannot have both access to excellent frontline tankyness/survival, good AoE dmg AND good utility toolkit.
Old version of mara with good utility + good survival was decent enough to bring 1-4 Maras to a warband, currently its just absurd how you can stack both high dmg frontline class and a high survivability frontline as Destro while retaining all of their utility toolkit.
One option would be to scale back the buffs to their AoE abilities that were changed last march, but given that Demo is what they spam 90% of time, this would also achieve similar end result. The other AoE attacks would still hit like a truck while Mara retains the highest mcrit potential of any mdps class in the game, and keep benefiting of the +50% armor ignore option. The Monstro spec would still be able to AoE KD, AoE interrupt, AoE disorient and AoE Init debuff - but now their main spammer would be less lethal instead of carving through most of enemies defences.




Of all the above, the nerf to Mara Demo spam would maybe change balance in endgame most. (and maybe allow for future buffs to their ST damage trees that they actually would need) They would now have focus on doing ST + well timed Wrecking Balls instead of killing whatever key they have bound Demolition on their keyboards. Enabling increased survival for AM with extra speed would somewhat make them more viable, same with enabling both WE/WH as "medium useful" pick and the extra survival potential for SW would bridge the gap between them and MSH in city usefulness.
Allowing engi/magus to join the club of former pet classes would also increase their potential as new member of the fast moving meleeballs of death.

All in all, the old dps "meta" of BW/SL/WL would still face off against Mara/Chop/Sorc/MSh metas - but now the previous "do not want" classes might become just bit less undesireable.

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Cornerback
Posts: 216

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#2 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:12 am

I like your ideas. They might need some tweaking, but the direction is great.

You've forgotten about IBs tho :D

And for Engi/Magus, I'd go for 30-40% dmg increase without turret and remove the range limit you mentioned. You're already losing a lot of dmg, your aoe knockdown and necessary debuffs from not having your pet with you. And you don't want to get to the frontline. You're a RDPS after all.
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convexte
Posts: 48

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#3 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:05 am

Mostly agree with Auran.
Can only suggest return the old 9 target cap only for cities.
Cornerback wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:12 am
I'd go for 30-40% dmg increase without turret
Too much.In serious wb vs wb fights as dps you always going to melee, that was the idea - dmg bonus when in melee without pet.
Now imagine sc/roam engie with high ws who dont need to get any stacks for doing full dmg, can literally blow people with dots and channel.And st magus still need his pet elem debuff, while engie can stack ws and use armpen ability.
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Cornerback
Posts: 216

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#4 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:06 am

convexte wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:05 am
Mostly agree with Auran.
Can only suggest return the old 9 target cap only for cities.
Cornerback wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 12:12 am
I'd go for 30-40% dmg increase without turret
Too much.In serious wb vs wb fights as dps you always going to melee, that was the idea - dmg bonus when in melee without pet.
Now imagine sc/roam engie with high ws who dont need to get any stacks for doing full dmg, can literally blow people with dots and channel.And st magus still need his pet elem debuff, while engie can stack ws and use armpen ability.
True.

Another approach could be to make magus/engi pets immune to aoe dmg and include them in groupheals. But not sure if this would be sufficient in cities. Probably not.
~~ Guild leader of Elements & Elementz ~~

Grombrindal (IB), Gromsson (Engi), Dwaini (RP), Snobbi (Slayer) - Carroburg/Karak Norn/Badlands/MS
Xeyron (Magus), Antyria (DoK), Antyrai(Witch Elf) - Karak Norn/MS

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madmalky2014
Posts: 138

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#5 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:17 am

I think the one main change should be moving Bunch of Waaagh on shaman to above lvl 16 because it make godlike in t1 and a complete nightmare. I dont think that such a stupid class should given self heal massive dps and shield in t1. Makes them stupidly strong. Only positive is for order player is they are fodder almost everything when they level out of t1.

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Bozzax
Posts: 2104

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#6 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:20 am

Don’t agree with making desperation/ADY always on, adding more move on heals or making wild healing into ”road runner” *meep meeep*

AMs and Shamans tend to heal less bc they lack an aoe hot. Meaning they may struggle a bit in AOE meta typically when not paired with a strong aoe healer like dok/wp.

Morale instead of APs for group is a fair deal and
Aoe slow and insta ress are the real strengths of the classes
Last edited by Bozzax on Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:21 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Nabaro
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Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#7 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:42 am

The changes are a little 2 strong but interesting.
Shamans and Archmages need a small AOE heal buff. With target healling everything is fine. Also shamans need a detaunt stuck nerf. WH\WE needs the AOE nontarget spam ability or any group\wb utility, that's true.
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Sinisterror
Posts: 135

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#8 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 7:49 am

I like most of what you are saying. I would add to Shaman/Archmage creen an cleanin/ishas encouragement change this to cleanse whole grp. Also Change resistance buff something useful OR give it 60 sec cd zealot/rp like skill. AM 25 % speed buff 5 seconds, or self knocback/knocback does respect immunities but AM would always self kb herself away from enemy. For wh/welf razor strike/slice change is awesome. Also add shadowstep to these classes, they could then maybe escape when they try to kill backline because stealth is not on cooldown. Maybe also both wh/we sanctified bullets/kiss of doom would also heal everyone 15 ft around you. Maybe it would be op if these healed your whole grp ?
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Grimfang
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Posts: 125

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#9 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 8:58 am

The AM/Shaman changes would be pretty op.
Merging the group cleanse (into a real group cleanse) and the hot tactic would be a good change.
Dont understand why a 11 point tactic is inferior to a 9 point dok/wp tactic

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Bozzax
Posts: 2104

Re: Various class balance change ideas to shake up endgame/city meta

Post#10 » Tue Aug 04, 2020 9:09 am

Would be super broken bc reduced CD on clns and stacking GC-hots (if you play mechanic)
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