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farng84
Posts: 63

Re: For the game developers team

Post#11 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:58 am

Kaelang wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:36 am
I'm not here to start discussing balance choices made. And for the latter comment, my point explained pretty clearly that we don't care about the sides we play, and it doesn't come into consideration.
I would not expect you to. Lol, that's opening pandora box, but if more tuning on either side is needed I hope to see it.
Sry I did not see the comment about not sabotaging one side, lol. But yes, that sort of impartiality is what I would expect :lol:

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Diragi
Posts: 41

Re: For the game developers team

Post#12 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:17 am

Cities are like 10% of the end gameplay... What's the WR balance on T4 and forts?

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M0rw47h
Posts: 593

Re: For the game developers team

Post#13 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:30 am

Destro is losing oRvR only, because they refuse to login before City Siege.
Anathae [KotBS] / Anathea [WP] ( and couple others )
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Hadann
Posts: 34

Re: For the game developers team

Post#14 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:35 am

I played RoR 3 years ago but at that time the game was still pretty buggy and my guild wasn't interested in RoR yet then and we just recently started on the game in june so I know to you people who think "time played=skill/knowledge" my post won't mean much to you.

The problem with RoR has nothing to do with actual balance patches. It starts with the community. In the last 2 months being here I have never seen so many self proclaimed gurus of warhammer who feel they are "god tier" players with endless knowledge of the game and then you group with their WBs/guilds for Orvr and city and they are completely clueless on any type of strats. Their go to excuse for losing is "dev team bias X class too strong" when in reality its their **** leadership and **** gameplay of their members who failed to produce.

We were in an alliance and we were running a "guild night" and had a 10man. We were in a smaller alliance and noticed one guild had 4 and the other had 1 online so we offered in chat if they wanted to join us our guild run wws beginning and the response we got in chat was " Sure drop group I'll invite we have a group". It's that type of mindset that kills this game since they felt time played some how gave them priority over a newer team who had a 10 man running. Say what you will about the dev team but they definitely balance without bias. We have a member who also streams, shes newer to streaming snd pretty small but grim chilled in her stream one night, answered any questions the few of us asked him, told us what he would like to do in future etc etc. You can decent talks with people when you stop being cry babies o7. If you get upset at this post your the problem ;)

Diragi
Posts: 41

Re: For the game developers team

Post#15 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:37 am

Which is why I mention forts and not RvR since the numbers in forts are somewhat normalized. There Order is getting in on the first push most of the time.

Now you can't just pass that off as Destro being disorganized with bad comp (which is probably true) because that's the same argument that's made about city outcomes!
Last edited by Diragi on Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

storm
Posts: 49

Re: For the game developers team

Post#16 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:38 am

I just got out of a City where Order had 6 engi and 0 healers. And people want to blame Destro classes? If the devs truly look at Data and spreadsheets? Can we get them to take a look at Fort win/loss ratio? In the past week/month. I bet the community would be interested in some of those numbers. I used to play for what ever side needed help, now I only play Destro cause nerf/buffs only seem to go one way, while everyone agrees there are very overpowered classes on Order. It is hard to make changes without 20 pages of rants, but lets at least have 20 pages from each side? Balancing is probably the most tricky thing to get right. A little love to each side at the same time would go a long way with how people felt about them in my opinion.

nuadarstark
Posts: 153

Re: For the game developers team

Post#17 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:45 am

Most of the destro folks don't care about forts, keeps and oRvR aside from maybe guild/alliance events (that also usually align with weekly 5 star Dorf siege, I wonder why...) and only log for cities. Half of the time your whole campaign effort hedges on the 2 PnP/FMJ warbands running around during the european TZs.

Compare that to Order right now, who now has solid amount of new-ish hungry guilds (us, FoW, etc) and leaders and has just now started to make big, server-wide alliances and you'll see why you're getting pushed back to the point campaign literally resets 3 times a day, once with city still on lockout.

People screaming murder to balance after 1 small Mara AoE nerf is absurd. Our side (Order) was getting largely shafted in oRvR for months now, aside from some TZs where destro has less presense. We endured it on Order, we still endure it in cities, you can take it for few weeks too before there is some other change and the ebb flows to the otherside.

Also, love the talk that "everyone" agrees Order classes are OP while the absurd cc pressure and utility of destro setups, bullshit pulls, bugged immunities and monstro procs, etc are still completely ignored. Sure, it's the damn WLs that are causing all the damn trouble.
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Diragi
Posts: 41

Re: For the game developers team

Post#18 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:12 pm

nuadarstark wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:45 am
People screaming murder to balance after 1 small Mara AoE nerf is absurd. Our side (Order) was getting largely shafted in oRvR for months now, aside from some TZs where destro has less presense. We endured it on Order, we still endure it in cities, you can take it for few weeks too before there is some other change and the ebb flows to the otherside.

Also, love the talk that "everyone" agrees Order classes are OP ...
Sure Destro was winning cities (at least p3) but forts were even or to Order's advantage. I've had much more success in SCs on the Order side but maybe that speaks to the willingness to be PvE heros. Also.. when it's usually delta of 3 tokens between a city W/L (usually you get more than that through bags) does winning your instance matter that much?

The mara nerf was the final straw for some ya. Because if that was worthy of balancing then there's a bunch Destro would like looked at.

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Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: For the game developers team

Post#19 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:19 pm

nuadarstark wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:45 am
Most of the destro folks don't care about forts, keeps and oRvR aside from maybe guild/alliance events (that also usually align with weekly 5 star Dorf siege, I wonder why...) and only log for cities. Half of the time your whole campaign effort hedges on the 2 PnP/FMJ warbands running around during the european TZs.

Compare that to Order right now, who now has solid amount of new-ish hungry guilds (us, FoW, etc) and leaders and has just now started to make big, server-wide alliances and you'll see why you're getting pushed back to the point campaign literally resets 3 times a day, once with city still on lockout.

People screaming murder to balance after 1 small Mara AoE nerf is absurd. Our side (Order) was getting largely shafted in oRvR for months now, aside from some TZs where destro has less presense. We endured it on Order, we still endure it in cities, you can take it for few weeks too before there is some other change and the ebb flows to the otherside.

Also, love the talk that "everyone" agrees Order classes are OP while the absurd cc pressure and utility of destro setups, bullshit pulls, bugged immunities and monstro procs, etc are still completely ignored. Sure, it's the damn WLs that are causing all the damn trouble.
Ok, this isn't a great take. Again, I play both sides and try not to see it from one perspective.

I want to be fair here, Order has some advantages, Destro has other advantages, but I can explain in more nuance

1. Destro does care about forts, keeps, and ORVR. That's not a good assumption, and you can't lump a whole side together like that.

2. "Order right now" and the "new hungry guilds" are frankly, mostly Destro players who are rerolling to try it out. Our massive 10 guild alliance has a few guilds rolling and playing Order in the lakes. I'm one of them. Some nights we're fielding 2 full wbs of destro rerollers alone. -50 destro +50 order will have a big swing when there's only 200-300 people in the lakes.

3. The Mara AoE nerf is not the issue on balance here, it's a different change.

4. The real issue we're seeing now are combat formula changes and how they impact the game. With the absorb and toughness formula changes, effective damage is much higher this patch across the board, primarily because of the toughness change (less so the absorbs). I will explain further:

What changed in the patch is this: Toughness mitigation used to be calculated prior to damage buffs (such as Choppa/Slayer mechanics, Flanking tactic, etc...), however this order has been switched. What this means is before the patch, lets say you had 1000 str and were hitting a 500 toughness target. Your damage would get reduced by the 500 toughness, and then be multipled by your damage modifiers. Now, your damage gets multipled by your damage modifiers, and then reduced by toughness. What this means is two things:

1. Toughness is way worse on this server than it was pre-patch.
2. % stacking damage bonuses are MUCH stronger than they used to be.

The issue is that we are now seeing, that this is effectively impacting different classes and realms differently. Some of the things I've noticed.

1. Magus/Engineers are much stronger than before and do way more damage in general.
2. As damage is up, it gives the side with the better ranged/aoe pressure an advantage in bottleneck situations (Destro basically can't push forts if component order is defending at the moment, they instantly melt even with morales up).
2. Slayers in particular are disgusting. The % damage changes buffed them and Choppas more than any other classes, however, Slayers do a lot more sustained damage than Choppas (ID/Rampage), which is causing them to be extremely hard to deal with and they honestly feel far worse than AoE Marauders used to.

I don't have a fix or a solution, but I want to make sure you have a good understanding of what's going on right now. At the moment, Destro is having a rough time basically everywhere. Sure it's only been a week or so, and it is what it is, but balance is not "my side is stronger because yours was stronger before", that's just tit for tatting.

Anyway, I need to do more testing/research and gather my thoughts on the recent changes a little better. The Marauder AoE nerf is still fine and irrelevant to this discussion though.

storm
Posts: 49

Re: For the game developers team

Post#20 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:43 pm

With power creep you will see less and less healers. It is not fun to get 2 shot even when you have detaunt up.

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