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NPCs as third faction.

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Lurkinglurker
Posts: 1

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#21 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:15 pm

Zxul wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:13 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:06 pm
This might just inspire me to make a fantasy suggestion subsection that we can gather these kind posts into. They're fun to imagine and overthink about, but reality is not going to be kind to them.
Its does makes me though wonder even more just how did GW1 pulled it off, with them being the only mmo that I know where mobs effectively use abilities and tactics. Especially that GW1 is even older than AoR.
GW1 was and is a great game, GW2 has had the potential to carry on that legacy.

A wild lurker here, chiming in because I am still upset about it to this day:
Back in GW2's alpha and beta the PvE was actually excellent - I am saying that as someone who did and does avoid PvE at all costs in all the games I play, with exceptions only made for the obvious gated non-sense that is mandatory and occasional game testing. The NPCs back then not just used abilities, they would also actively dodge your's. It was so engaging that they whittled it down over time and eventually dumbed it down to essentially a fancy-looking tab-target snoozefest. Their actual target demographic couldn't cope with the challenge, everything that happened to the game thereafter was just par of the course - once you give a finger, you'll eventually lose your hand. GW2 could have been a great game (with emphasis on PvP), but it did wind up as yet another themepark-MMO in sheep's clothing, posturing with PvP/RvR elements and challenging innovative combat systems it'd abandon the first chance it got for Skinner Box and monotonous timesink driven $$$. It didn't pay off longterm, judging by ArenaNet's track record.

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wargrimnir
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Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#22 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:35 pm

Zxul wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:13 pm
wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:06 pm
This might just inspire me to make a fantasy suggestion subsection that we can gather these kind posts into. They're fun to imagine and overthink about, but reality is not going to be kind to them.
Its does makes me though wonder even more just how did GW1 pulled it off, with them being the only mmo that I know where mobs effectively use abilities and tactics. Especially that GW1 is even older than AoR.
They probably had a small team of devs dedicated to building out abilities and mild scripting for enemies. We could do it, just takes a lot of time investment and the desire to work on NPC scripting.
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PlagueMonk
Posts: 14

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#23 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:29 pm

I think, based on both of your posts here, what sets precedence now (didn't exist when this game was developed) is both End Times and Age of Sigmar, and how GW changed the factions.

If we look at this model, we can see there are 4 primary factions in Age of Sigmar that correlate to the races of the old world. It's similar to what you have, but you are putting too much in destruction and you aren't adding in death.

The 4 factions are Order/Chaos/Destruction/Death.

Now for the precedence of the end of times. Pretty much everyone allies with someone to a degree. All of the elves, including the wood elves, re-band together into one large faction. Tomb Kings actually ally with Order more or less, although there is a lot of screwery involved w/Nagash and the rest.

So, if I were to say "lets make a hypothetical warhammer game based on the current fantasy lore of 2020", it would be something like:

Order:
- Empire
- Combined Elves (Wood/Dark/High)
- Dwarves
- Lizardmen
- Bretonnia

Chaos:
- Warriors of Chaos
- Daemons of Chaos
- Beastmen
- Skaven
- Chaos Dwarves

Destruction:
- Orcs
- Goblins
- Ogres
- Night Goblins

Death:
Vampire Counts
Tomb Kings

This would probably be the most lore appropriate way to do "more than 2 factions". You could also easily do 3, and just cut out Death as playable characters.
That would be a , "guilty as charged". I am more aligned with the Warhammer lore from 10 years ago and the Total War games. I saw all the AoS nonsense and just didn't buy it. They had all of these great opposite pairings and basically ruined it all.....imho. No way in hell a Dark Elf would be buddy buddy with a High Elf. Of course lore-wise, about the only group I could truly see the High Elves aligning with would be the Lizards. There is a reason why it's called WARhammer, because just about everyone has a problem with everyone else for some reason and on some level.

Again, if this was not an MMO, I would say ok but since 3 factions MMO-wise is already a risky venture, I would say it needs to stay at that number.

If you were looking for Order Allies, maybe you could borrow from Total War and include Kislev and then put the Norscan's on Chaos.

I just don't agree that the Wood Elves would join in or the DEs would be on the side of order, maybe it's a personal thing for me. /shrugs. I suppose you could put the TKs on Order as well but I really think that, even though they aren't inherently evil, they really don't play well with the other children and most certainly despise Nagash
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ekalime
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Posts: 25

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#24 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:52 pm

The things that I have read here have caused me to weep tears of blood... I still like to pretend End Times never happened given the absolutely horrid writing of what comes off as a destro-fan-boi fantasy.

Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#25 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:30 am

ekalime wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:52 pm
The things that I have read here have caused me to weep tears of blood... I still like to pretend End Times never happened given the absolutely horrid writing of what comes off as a destro-fan-boi fantasy.
I mean the end times was pretty bad but it did have some cool moments.

Chaos was always destined to win more or less, it was a matter of how long it could be contained. There's very little in warhammer fantasy lore about anyone actually going on the offensive to chaos pretty much at any point of time, it's not like the inevitable city was ever at any real danger or that chaos ever had any chance of being driven off of the warhammer fantasy world, outside of the Old Ones showing back up. One of the central parts of all warhammer lore (fantasy and 40k) is that chaos is inevitable, and that nobody actually has a plan to "defeat" them, it's all stalling tactics.

This is one of the fundamental aspects that gives these world the "grimdark" feeling, as in, no matter what you do, you cannot escape the inevitable grip of chaos taking over, and this threat looms over the setting as the main antagonistic backdrop.

Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#26 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:43 am

PlagueMonk wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:56 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:29 pm

I think, based on both of your posts here, what sets precedence now (didn't exist when this game was developed) is both End Times and Age of Sigmar, and how GW changed the factions.

If we look at this model, we can see there are 4 primary factions in Age of Sigmar that correlate to the races of the old world. It's similar to what you have, but you are putting too much in destruction and you aren't adding in death.

The 4 factions are Order/Chaos/Destruction/Death.

Now for the precedence of the end of times. Pretty much everyone allies with someone to a degree. All of the elves, including the wood elves, re-band together into one large faction. Tomb Kings actually ally with Order more or less, although there is a lot of screwery involved w/Nagash and the rest.

So, if I were to say "lets make a hypothetical warhammer game based on the current fantasy lore of 2020", it would be something like:

Order:
- Empire
- Combined Elves (Wood/Dark/High)
- Dwarves
- Lizardmen
- Bretonnia

Chaos:
- Warriors of Chaos
- Daemons of Chaos
- Beastmen
- Skaven
- Chaos Dwarves

Destruction:
- Orcs
- Goblins
- Ogres
- Night Goblins

Death:
Vampire Counts
Tomb Kings

This would probably be the most lore appropriate way to do "more than 2 factions". You could also easily do 3, and just cut out Death as playable characters.
That would be a , "guilty as charged". I am more aligned with the Warhammer lore from 10 years ago and the Total War games. I saw all the AoS nonsense and just didn't buy it. They had all of these great opposite pairings and basically ruined it all.....imho. No way in hell a Dark Elf would be buddy buddy with a High Elf. Of course lore-wise, about the only group I could truly see the High Elves aligning with would be the Lizards. There is a reason why it's called WARhammer, because just about everyone has a problem with everyone else for some reason and on some level.

Again, if this was not an MMO, I would say ok but since 3 factions MMO-wise is already a risky venture, I would say it needs to stay at that number.

If you were looking for Order Allies, maybe you could borrow from Total War and include Kislev and then put the Norscan's on Chaos.

I just don't agree that the Wood Elves would join in or the DEs would be on the side of order, maybe it's a personal thing for me. /shrugs. I suppose you could put the TKs on Order as well but I really think that, even though they aren't inherently evil, they really don't play well with the other children and most certainly despise Nagash
The Elf thing is weird in the end times and super convoluted. Basically, its a big old civil war, that ends with Malekith allying with the Wood Elves and taking over Ulthuan with "some" of the dark elves and the help of some of the high elves. The rest of the high elves and some of the other dark elves end up following Tyrion (until Malekith eventually wins at the end more or less). The neat part is that it's not just a clear "alliance" or even a "dark elf vs high elf" war, its literally some dark elves, wood elves, and high elves, vs some other high elves and dark elves. Cool premise, not the best execution.

Some of the end times is just super weak though. Chaos Dwarfs get like nothing, they just get wiped out by Orcs, wow great. Lizardmen have some awesome scenes, the Mazamundi/Lord Kroak story in the end times is probably one of my all time favorites from fantasy lore, but the "m night shamalayan" twist of "hey we are aliens and the temples are spaceships cya later", is super weak writing.

Zxul
Posts: 905

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#27 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:10 pm

Foofmonger wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:30 am
ekalime wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:52 pm
The things that I have read here have caused me to weep tears of blood... I still like to pretend End Times never happened given the absolutely horrid writing of what comes off as a destro-fan-boi fantasy.
I mean the end times was pretty bad but it did have some cool moments.

Chaos was always destined to win more or less, it was a matter of how long it could be contained. There's very little in warhammer fantasy lore about anyone actually going on the offensive to chaos pretty much at any point of time, it's not like the inevitable city was ever at any real danger or that chaos ever had any chance of being driven off of the warhammer fantasy world, outside of the Old Ones showing back up. One of the central parts of all warhammer lore (fantasy and 40k) is that chaos is inevitable, and that nobody actually has a plan to "defeat" them, it's all stalling tactics.

This is one of the fundamental aspects that gives these world the "grimdark" feeling, as in, no matter what you do, you cannot escape the inevitable grip of chaos taking over, and this threat looms over the setting as the main antagonistic backdrop.
Yep one thing I don't like about Warhammer/WH40k settings, none ever tries fun stuff like trying to off one of greater daemons, or even better Chaos gods, to steal their power. Just no mages with ambition, unlike some other settings.

+all the powers are pretty much "in your face", whatever new which pops is just another something which belongs to Chaos/necrons/tyranids/Old ones. Warhammer and especially WH40k would benefit a lot from having something like Lovecraftian Great Old Ones popping up to spice things a bit.
"Can we play with him, master? He seems so unhappy. Let us help him smile. Please? Or at least let us carve one on his face when he stops screaming."

— Azeila, Alluress of Slaanesh

Foofmonger
Posts: 517

Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#28 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:35 pm

Zxul wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:10 pm
Foofmonger wrote:
Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:30 am
ekalime wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:52 pm
The things that I have read here have caused me to weep tears of blood... I still like to pretend End Times never happened given the absolutely horrid writing of what comes off as a destro-fan-boi fantasy.
I mean the end times was pretty bad but it did have some cool moments.

Chaos was always destined to win more or less, it was a matter of how long it could be contained. There's very little in warhammer fantasy lore about anyone actually going on the offensive to chaos pretty much at any point of time, it's not like the inevitable city was ever at any real danger or that chaos ever had any chance of being driven off of the warhammer fantasy world, outside of the Old Ones showing back up. One of the central parts of all warhammer lore (fantasy and 40k) is that chaos is inevitable, and that nobody actually has a plan to "defeat" them, it's all stalling tactics.

This is one of the fundamental aspects that gives these world the "grimdark" feeling, as in, no matter what you do, you cannot escape the inevitable grip of chaos taking over, and this threat looms over the setting as the main antagonistic backdrop.
Yep one thing I don't like about Warhammer/WH40k settings, none ever tries fun stuff like trying to off one of greater daemons, or even better Chaos gods, to steal their power. Just no mages with ambition, unlike some other settings.

+all the powers are pretty much "in your face", whatever new which pops is just another something which belongs to Chaos/necrons/tyranids/Old ones. Warhammer and especially WH40k would benefit a lot from having something like Lovecraftian Great Old Ones popping up to spice things a bit.
Yea, as good as the setting is, it's not flawless, and in 40k in particular there has a been a ton of stagnation and very slow movement in the overall narrative. Fantasy at least something happened, although that something was as we already spoke about, pretty dumb.

They could have done interesting stuff with Fantasy (theres Ind, Cathay, and basically all of that side of the world that they never really explored), and with 40k its space so the sky is the limit there, you can do whatever and have new xenos show up as needed.

The one thing I do really like about Chaos though, is that Chaos aren't aliens, they aren't "outsiders" and they aren't "others" they are the reflection of the emotions of sentient races. In fantasy, the chaos gods are molded and shaped by human emotions. If you read through the lore, the only reason humans have civilization in fantasy is because of the taint of chaos driving forward their progress. Without chaos in fantasy, there is no empire, no bretonnia, no nothing for humans, they would have just been random tribes of hunter/gatheres roaming around forests. In 40k, since the scale is wider and there are just more volume of xenos, it's less human centirc in nature, but the output of Chaos in 40k is still very human. It's humans who have become corrupted by Chaos, not Eldar, not Orks, etc...

It's a parable for our own darker nature within the real world. No matter what you do, you cannot escape the grips of fate, of pride, of lust, of hatred, of greed, etc... Nurgle is a twisted abomination, but he represents time and entropy, fundamental laws of our own real universe. They are human emotion taken to the most extreme variables and scope.

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Martok
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Re: NPCs as third faction.

Post#29 » Thu Sep 17, 2020 9:45 pm

wargrimnir wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:06 pm
This might just inspire me to make a fantasy suggestion subsection that we can gather these kind posts into. They're fun to imagine and overthink about, but reality is not going to be kind to them.

But, but, what about the Elvis Clones? A zone flooded with guys all pointing and saying "Thank-you, thank-you very much!"

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