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Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

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Fanaticseb
Posts: 12

Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#1 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:41 am

As far as i know,
  • all percentage based heal buffs stack, because they are tactics.
  • all percentage based heal debuffs don't stack, because they are abilities (Curse of Khaine (DoK) => 13 pt tactic in torture tree...50% incoming healdebuff on crit)
Let's look at the example that a player is heal debuffed with a 25% HD and buffed with 15% and a + 25% heal buff:
so that should be 1 * 1.4 * 0.75 = 1.05

player is heal debuffed with a 25% HD and buffed with + 15%, +15% and a + 25% heal buff:
so that should be 1 * 1.55 * 0.75 = 1,1625

player is heal debuffed with a 25% HD + 50% HD(Strongest apply) and buffed with + 15% and a + 25% heal buff:
so that should be 1 * 1.40 * 0.5 = 0,7

player is heal debuffed with a 25% HD + 50% HD(Strongest apply) and buffed with + 15%, +15% and a + 25% heal buff:
so that should be 1 * 1.55 * 0.5 = 0,775

So these easy examples illustrate that stacking percentage based heal buffs is really effective, because they stack additivly and stacking heal debuffs does nothing.

One Realm has more easy access to percentage based heal tactics that are easily appliable to a group, which is tipping the balance in favor of that realm in raw healing output.

Tactics that come to my mind that are problematic are:
  • Focused Mending (KOTBS)
  • Blessing of Chaos (Zealot)
  • Blessing of Grungni (Runepriest)
  • Exalted Defenses (Warrior Priest) to a lesser degree, because it is not incoming healing, but the other Realm has no mirror
Suggestions: (edit: Pick one)
  • mirror the tactics to the other Realm
  • make it so that only the strongest heal buff applies, like healing debuffs
  • remove the not accessable tactics


Addendum: This interplay with heal debuffs and heal buffs results in some healer combinations as not being playable, because the 50% heal debuff is too strong, when no heal buffs are present.

If i made any mistakes with my arguments then pls point them out :)

(Edit: IT was pointed out that 2 KOTBS can't stack the tactic Focused Mending, because the auras don't stack. Has somebody tested this? I dont have the means to test it atm.
I was relying on info from twitch chat in this VOD: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/744403794?t=05h26m10s )
Last edited by Fanaticseb on Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:16 am, edited 3 times in total.

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M0rw47h
Posts: 627

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#2 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:54 am

One realm has more raw numbers, while other has self morale pumps, better morales on average and so on, combined with extra coldown reducer. You can't just mirror one aspect and ignore others.
Anathae [KotBS] / Anathea [WP] ( and couple others )
former Anathae [Zealot]

emiliorv
Posts: 562

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#3 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:56 am

Fanaticseb wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:41 am
As far as i know,

[*]all percentage based heal debuffs don't stack, because they are abilities[/list]
-Curse of Khaine (DoK) => 13 pt tactic in torture tree...50% incoming healdebuff on crit.


and yes => order healing numbers are higher than destro.
(order will complaing about morales....but now that morale drops are nerfed raw numbers > morale)

Fanaticseb
Posts: 12

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#4 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:03 am

M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:54 am
One realm has more raw numbers, while other has self morale pumps, better morales on average and so on, combined with extra coldown reducer. You can't just mirror one aspect and ignore others.
Morale dmg got nerfed though.

Then just make it so that only the strongest heal buff applies. This will help with class diversity too, because stacking is less effective.

Fanaticseb
Posts: 12

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#5 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:05 am

emiliorv wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:56 am
Fanaticseb wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:41 am
As far as i know,

[*]all percentage based heal debuffs don't stack, because they are abilities[/list]
-Curse of Khaine (DoK) => 13 pt tactic in torture tree...50% incoming healdebuff on crit.


and yes => order healing numbers are higher than destro.
(order will complaing about morales....but now that morale drops are nerfed raw numbers > morale)
and this tactic don't stack with heal debuff abilities, right?
If they don't stack then i will change the first post

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M0rw47h
Posts: 627

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#6 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:09 am

Fanaticseb wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:03 am
M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:54 am
One realm has more raw numbers, while other has self morale pumps, better morales on average and so on, combined with extra coldown reducer. You can't just mirror one aspect and ignore others.
Morale dmg got nerfed though.

Then just make it so that only the strongest heal buff applies. This will help with class diversity too, because stacking is less effective.
How it will help with class diversity?
If you mirror ED to DoK, average DoK will be even more supreme to other destro healers.

In the end you will just nerf Order and buff Destro?
Anathae [KotBS] / Anathea [WP] ( and couple others )
former Anathae [Zealot]

Fanaticseb
Posts: 12

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#7 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:13 am

M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:09 am
Fanaticseb wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:03 am
M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:54 am
One realm has more raw numbers, while other has self morale pumps, better morales on average and so on, combined with extra coldown reducer. You can't just mirror one aspect and ignore others.
Morale dmg got nerfed though.

Then just make it so that only the strongest heal buff applies. This will help with class diversity too, because stacking is less effective.
How it will help with class diversity?
If you mirror ED to DoK, average DoK will be even more supreme to other destro healers.

In the end you will just nerf Order and buff Destro?
Because u don't have to bring runepriest, kotbs and wp cause of the superior interplay with the heal buffs

User avatar
M0rw47h
Posts: 627

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#8 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:14 am

Fanaticseb wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:13 am
M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:09 am
Fanaticseb wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:03 am


Morale dmg got nerfed though.

Then just make it so that only the strongest heal buff applies. This will help with class diversity too, because stacking is less effective.
How it will help with class diversity?
If you mirror ED to DoK, average DoK will be even more supreme to other destro healers.

In the end you will just nerf Order and buff Destro?
Because u don't have to bring runepriest, kotbs and wp cause of the superior interplay with the heal buffs
You're wrong, you still will bring exacly same combo, Knight will just use AP aura instead of SF!.
Anathae [KotBS] / Anathea [WP] ( and couple others )
former Anathae [Zealot]

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Fanaticseb
Posts: 12

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#9 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:17 am

M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:14 am
Fanaticseb wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:13 am
M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:09 am


How it will help with class diversity?
If you mirror ED to DoK, average DoK will be even more supreme to other destro healers.

In the end you will just nerf Order and buff Destro?
Because u don't have to bring runepriest, kotbs and wp cause of the superior interplay with the heal buffs
You're wrong, you still will bring exacly same combo, Knight will just use AP aura instead of SF!.
So you are saying that this combo is even strong without the heal buff synergy, then it shouldnt be a hard hitting change

emiliorv
Posts: 562

Re: Incoming healbuffs shouldnt stack, because healdebuffs also dont stack

Post#10 » Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:18 am

M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:09 am
Spoiler:
Fanaticseb wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 10:03 am
M0rw47h wrote:
Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:54 am
One realm has more raw numbers, while other has self morale pumps, better morales on average and so on, combined with extra coldown reducer. You can't just mirror one aspect and ignore others.
Morale dmg got nerfed though.

Then just make it so that only the strongest heal buff applies. This will help with class diversity too, because stacking is less effective.
How it will help with class diversity?
If you mirror ED to DoK, average DoK will be even more supreme to other destro healers.
Then average WP is top supreme over order healers (cause ED)?? how could be if ED is a overrated tactic (from destro pov ofc) and every order forum warrior says that is pretty useless...

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