What justifies this ?

[Schweedy]

Spoiler:

Just to clarify, Shatter Limbs used to be Order Unique. It was given to mSH in the form of "Indigestion", 9 points up the Bouncin' Tree.

Chop Fasta! I would argue is better than Whispering Winds and WAAAAAAAGH!. The reason for this is simple. It has the same uptime as WW and WAAA- at 50%. However, unlike the other two, you don't have to get to a specific stance. You can preload Chop Fasta! at the start of the fight, where SM and BO both have to use three GCD, two of which requires you to hit in melee if you Sudden Shift or Changin' Da Plan (I can't remember if these trigger GCD, but still), and a Choppa has to use one GCD at any given time.

I do not have a counter argument to ID, as I am not a Slayer player. Anecdotally, as a former Destro player, here and on Live, I never really felt frustrated by a Slayer imploding me with ID/rampage. But GTDC has definitely frustrated me, not because of its damage, but that wonky ass pull. If there was at least a visual indicator of some kind for it to tell you you're within instant pull range, it wouldn't be that bad. It would still be frustrating, like any pull, but at least feel more justified. With Marauder, you have a long purple schlong rubbing up against you. With WL, there's a large white kitten nuzzling your scrote. With Choppa it's just... he's spinning, which HeliChoppas are doing even when there's no fight going and then you're flying through the air.

I understand the plight of Choppas vs Slayers, and maybe Chop Fasta! doesn't make up for the raw damage Slayers can put out, but boy do I wish I had an on demand cd reducer. Which is unique to destro, mind you.

I agree that this game is (or at least) should be modeled after synergies, but the argumentation between your other statements is fragile.

1. This thread is not a comparison between Indigestion (mSH) and Shatter Limbs (Slayer). No one is complaining about how unfair or imbalanced both abilities are.

2. All that WAAAAAGH and Chop Fasta! has created is redundancy with BOTH coming in at a significant cost. One cost a tactic and cannot be cleansed (BO), Chop Fasta! (Enchantment) can be cleansed and is on a 40 second CD (1/2 uptime /50%; 10 point investment), which any Knight/SM worth his salt will immediately detect/shatter as is their duty. To even compare it to Rampage is a joke (30 sec CD: 2/3 Uptime; 6 point investment). Going to either Perfect Stance or Da Best Plan is also a non-argument. Since you can have it ready for any engagement in 10 seconds or less. SM/BO have abilities that do not need targets to rotate stances even without the 5 second stance switcher. It is a non-issue.

3. The anecdotal fact, which you admitted, about never having been threatened by Slayers in 6v6/wb/Scens/or 1v1 DOES NOT invalidate the present experience by a LARGE body of players in Destro. I posted before that in the recent weeks, if not months, SlayerDeathBalls in partial or FULL SOV have been farming IC and wrecking face with reckless abandon due to that ridiculous combo Rampage + ID + Shatter Limbs (?) + Retribution. I will even provide proof. Like it was mentioned in the post before you. The tanks take AMPLIFIED damage because it is undefendable damage, making it a bloody nightmare for healers like myself to even attempt to keep up.


October 11 2020. There were 3 Inevitable City Invasions that day by the way.

[Schweedy]

You could make this comparison with every single class. As for now, destro is ahead in every aspects but 2 (rampage for slayers and funnel power for fireclowns). All other scenarios, i would state is favorable for destro (even after morale change).

We are so ahead in fact, that we are taking Altdorf at least 5 times a week and never let it get to 5 Stars right?

The thread I linked below may help ya out. There's a lot of theorycrafting, but the arguments carry reasonably good sense. The perception is there for a reason. The stereotype exists for a reason.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=41567&p=441968#p441968

But there's another litlle thing about Rampage that it's written in the tooltip. Not Rampage tooltip, Guard tooltip. Guard damage generated by undefendable attack is also undfendable! Yes, you get it right, Destru tanks can't parry/block guard damage generated by Slayer. So if you are a Slayer and you are using Rampage+ID+Retribution+Reckless Gamble on a guarded target in Guard range the tank will be hitted by ID, Reckless Gamble (x2), Retribution and all the Guard damage generated by his guarded target.

Now, I must say that both Rampage and ID can be dispelled but they both have pretty low CD, so not a big problem. Also Rampage drops your Rage but this can be avoided by slotting the tactic Power Through.

Thank You Sir/Ma'am/Whomever you are. For highlighting that which is glossed over by everyone. It's amazing really. Baffling perhaps.

[CeeJay89]

Spoiler:

Just to clarify, Shatter Limbs used to be Order Unique. It was given to mSH in the form of "Indigestion", 9 points up the Bouncin' Tree.

Chop Fasta! I would argue is better than Whispering Winds and WAAAAAAAGH!. The reason for this is simple. It has the same uptime as WW and WAAA- at 50%. However, unlike the other two, you don't have to get to a specific stance. You can preload Chop Fasta! at the start of the fight, where SM and BO both have to use three GCD, two of which requires you to hit in melee if you Sudden Shift or Changin' Da Plan (I can't remember if these trigger GCD, but still), and a Choppa has to use one GCD at any given time.

I do not have a counter argument to ID, as I am not a Slayer player. Anecdotally, as a former Destro player, here and on Live, I never really felt frustrated by a Slayer imploding me with ID/rampage. But GTDC has definitely frustrated me, not because of its damage, but that wonky ass pull. If there was at least a visual indicator of some kind for it to tell you you're within instant pull range, it wouldn't be that bad. It would still be frustrating, like any pull, but at least feel more justified. With Marauder, you have a long purple schlong rubbing up against you. With WL, there's a large white kitten nuzzling your scrote. With Choppa it's just... he's spinning, which HeliChoppas are doing even when there's no fight going and then you're flying through the air.

I understand the plight of Choppas vs Slayers, and maybe Chop Fasta! doesn't make up for the raw damage Slayers can put out, but boy do I wish I had an on demand cd reducer. Which is unique to destro, mind you.

I agree that this game is (or at least) should be modeled after synergies, but the argumentation between your other statements is fragile.

1. This thread is not a comparison between Indigestion (mSH) and Shatter Limbs (Slayer). No one is complaining about how unfair or imbalanced both abilities are.

2. All that WAAAAAGH and Chop Fasta! has created is redundancy with BOTH coming in at a significant cost. One cost a tactic and cannot be cleansed (BO), Chop Fasta! (Enchantment) can be cleansed and is on a 40 second CD (1/2 uptime /50%; 10 point investment), which any Knight/SM worth his salt will immediately detect/shatter as is their duty. To even compare it to Rampage is a joke (30 sec CD: 2/3 Uptime; 6 point investment). Going to either Perfect Stance or Da Best Plan is also a non-argument. Since you can have it ready for any engagement in 10 seconds or less. SM/BO have abilities that do not need targets to rotate stances even without the 5 second stance switcher. It is a non-issue.

3. The anecdotal fact, which you admitted, about never having been threatened by Slayers in 6v6/wb/Scens/or 1v1 DOES NOT invalidate the present experience by a LARGE body of players in Destro. I posted before that in the recent weeks, if not months, SlayerDeathBalls in partial or FULL SOV have been farming IC and wrecking face with reckless abandon due to that ridiculous combo Rampage + ID + Shatter Limbs (?) + Retribution. I will even provide proof. Like it was mentioned in the post before you. The tanks take AMPLIFIED damage because it is undefendable damage, making it a bloody nightmare for healers like myself to even attempt to keep up.


October 11 2020. There were 3 Inevitable City Invasions that day by the way.

How positively adorable of you to call my arguments fragile, and then immediately give your own anecdotal 'evidence'.

Just because you're unable to keep up the healing doesn't mean everyone else is. Your ANECDOTAL experience as a destro player doesn't invalidate the LARGE number of experiences of Order players either. Destro is still winning city sieges.

Chop Fasta can be severed. WAAAAAAGH! can be severed. Guess what? ID can be group cleansed. Rampage can be severed which AnY BO oR BG wOrTh ThEiR sAlT sHoUlD bE dOiNg. What's your point?

Pretending like Chop Fasta! is a significant investment is worse than saying Rampage is a significant investment. It's already built into the tree you're going up anyways. Chop Fasta! Is better than WW and WAAAAAAGH! Take your bias bullshit some place else.

Also, do your job as a (hopefully) intelligent person and read who I was responding to before trying to call me out on commenting on Shatter Limbs/Indigestion.

[Miaso]

Spoiler:

Just to clarify, Shatter Limbs used to be Order Unique. It was given to mSH in the form of "Indigestion", 9 points up the Bouncin' Tree.

Chop Fasta! I would argue is better than Whispering Winds and WAAAAAAAGH!. The reason for this is simple. It has the same uptime as WW and WAAA- at 50%. However, unlike the other two, you don't have to get to a specific stance. You can preload Chop Fasta! at the start of the fight, where SM and BO both have to use three GCD, two of which requires you to hit in melee if you Sudden Shift or Changin' Da Plan (I can't remember if these trigger GCD, but still), and a Choppa has to use one GCD at any given time.

I do not have a counter argument to ID, as I am not a Slayer player. Anecdotally, as a former Destro player, here and on Live, I never really felt frustrated by a Slayer imploding me with ID/rampage. But GTDC has definitely frustrated me, not because of its damage, but that wonky ass pull. If there was at least a visual indicator of some kind for it to tell you you're within instant pull range, it wouldn't be that bad. It would still be frustrating, like any pull, but at least feel more justified. With Marauder, you have a long purple schlong rubbing up against you. With WL, there's a large white kitten nuzzling your scrote. With Choppa it's just... he's spinning, which HeliChoppas are doing even when there's no fight going and then you're flying through the air.

I understand the plight of Choppas vs Slayers, and maybe Chop Fasta! doesn't make up for the raw damage Slayers can put out, but boy do I wish I had an on demand cd reducer. Which is unique to destro, mind you.

I agree that this game is (or at least) should be modeled after synergies, but the argumentation between your other statements is fragile.

1. This thread is not a comparison between Indigestion (mSH) and Shatter Limbs (Slayer). No one is complaining about how unfair or imbalanced both abilities are.

2. All that WAAAAAGH and Chop Fasta! has created is redundancy with BOTH coming in at a significant cost. One cost a tactic and cannot be cleansed (BO), Chop Fasta! (Enchantment) can be cleansed and is on a 40 second CD (1/2 uptime /50%; 10 point investment), which any Knight/SM worth his salt will immediately detect/shatter as is their duty. To even compare it to Rampage is a joke (30 sec CD: 2/3 Uptime; 6 point investment). Going to either Perfect Stance or Da Best Plan is also a non-argument. Since you can have it ready for any engagement in 10 seconds or less. SM/BO have abilities that do not need targets to rotate stances even without the 5 second stance switcher. It is a non-issue.

3. The anecdotal fact, which you admitted, about never having been threatened by Slayers in 6v6/wb/Scens/or 1v1 DOES NOT invalidate the present experience by a LARGE body of players in Destro. I posted before that in the recent weeks, if not months, SlayerDeathBalls in partial or FULL SOV have been farming IC and wrecking face with reckless abandon due to that ridiculous combo Rampage + ID + Shatter Limbs (?) + Retribution. I will even provide proof. Like it was mentioned in the post before you. The tanks take AMPLIFIED damage because it is undefendable damage, making it a bloody nightmare for healers like myself to even attempt to keep up.


October 11 2020. There were 3 Inevitable City Invasions that day by the way.

Welcome to the life of Order healers for the last year whenever they come across the melee Train of FMJ and PnP's Choppas and Maras, you finally get to see what it is like facing a good melee Train instead of a bunch of Engis and SW in the City

[Sundowner]

Ahem... Git gud mates.

On the serious note tho, only way for order (without slayer meta comp) to defeat destro melee cc ball in cities is kiting, positioning and a lot of movement, only wins I had against good destro wb's were accomplished using this strategy.

Instead of whining about "op" slayers (only meta choice for good city wb, since wl's are very subpar when mobility is not needed), learn to fight against meta comps and melee balls.

[Schweedy]

Spoiler:

How positively adorable of you to call my arguments fragile, and then immediately give your own anecdotal 'evidence'.

Just because you're unable to keep up the healing doesn't mean everyone else is. Your ANECDOTAL experience as a destro player doesn't invalidate the LARGE number of experiences of Order players either. Destro is still winning city sieges.

Chop Fasta can be severed. WAAAAAAGH! can be severed. Guess what? ID can be group cleansed. Rampage can be severed which AnY BO oR BG wOrTh ThEiR sAlT sHoUlD bE dOiNg. What's your point?

Pretending like Chop Fasta! is a significant investment is worse than saying Rampage is a significant investment. It's already built into the tree you're going up anyways. Chop Fasta! Is better than WW and WAAAAAAGH! Take your bias bullshit some place else.

Also, do your job as a (hopefully) intelligent person and read who I was responding to before trying to call me out on commenting on Shatter Limbs/Indigestion.

Wow. The tone of my post was not meant to be either condescending or maliciously argumentative, just persuasive. If you perceived it that way from me using the word "fragile" well...
welcome to the internet (were opposing views/adjectives are everywhere).

I never said my experience wasn't anecdotal. Don't extrapolate, this is just a discussion so one should be inherently open to opposing view points. The least we can do is offer a corollary to the argument in order to advance it or develop it. Personal attacks also get you nowhere, since I have been top healer in a number of city sieges (winning or losing ones). Now I guess I need to keep track of all my cities to validate an argument
I brought Chop Fasta! into the discussion because it is in MY OPINION not even close to being on the same level as Rampage in value (as Ysaran has already brought up), especially since the Black Orc can spam the same ability with 50% uptime. Therefore making it somewhat redundant in regards to certain comps/synergies.

What's your point? Keep it civil please?

PS: if you check out that screenshot you will see 5 slayers. That's 5 Slayers in the same discord using Rampage at the same time, applying undefendable damage on everyone in their path at the same time.
Seriously brother, do Destro cities. If you haven't meet this you haven't lived.

[Schweedy]

Welcome to the life of Order healers for the last year whenever they come across the melee Train of FMJ and PnP's Choppas and Maras, you finally get to see what it is like facing a good melee Train instead of a bunch of Engis and SW in the City

I think the Slayer got a slight change and the Marauder Demolition tree was nerfed like 2- 3 times? due to multiple complaints from Order Guilds/Players. Choppa GtTC was changed as well like twice if I'm not mistaken; once to it's range and the other one to it's capacity to be defended, which I heard was a good change since tanks are the one's who blocked/defended it.

I wish I could put up a log of those specific changes, without having to dig through a year of patch news.

[CeeJay89]

Spoiler:

How positively adorable of you to call my arguments fragile, and then immediately give your own anecdotal 'evidence'.

Just because you're unable to keep up the healing doesn't mean everyone else is. Your ANECDOTAL experience as a destro player doesn't invalidate the LARGE number of experiences of Order players either. Destro is still winning city sieges.

Chop Fasta can be severed. WAAAAAAGH! can be severed. Guess what? ID can be group cleansed. Rampage can be severed which AnY BO oR BG wOrTh ThEiR sAlT sHoUlD bE dOiNg. What's your point?

Pretending like Chop Fasta! is a significant investment is worse than saying Rampage is a significant investment. It's already built into the tree you're going up anyways. Chop Fasta! Is better than WW and WAAAAAAGH! Take your bias bullshit some place else.

Also, do your job as a (hopefully) intelligent person and read who I was responding to before trying to call me out on commenting on Shatter Limbs/Indigestion.

Wow. The tone of my post was not meant to be either condescending or maliciously argumentative, just persuasive. If you perceived it that way from me using the word "fragile" well...
welcome to the internet (were opposing views/adjectives are everywhere).

I never said my experience wasn't anecdotal. Don't extrapolate, this is just a discussion so one should be inherently open to opposing view points. The least we can do is offer a corollary to the argument in order to advance it or develop it. Personal attacks also get you nowhere, since I have been top healer in a number of city sieges (winning or losing ones). Now I guess I need to keep track of all my cities to validate an argument
I brought Chop Fasta! into the discussion because it is in MY OPINION not even close to being on the same level as Rampage in value (as Ysaran has already brought up), especially since the Black Orc can spam the same ability with 50% uptime. Therefore making it somewhat redundant in regards to certain comps/synergies.

What's your point? Keep it civil please?

PS: if you check out that screenshot you will see 5 slayers. That's 5 Slayers in the same discord using Rampage at the same time, applying undefendable damage on everyone in their path at the same time.
Seriously brother, do Destro cities. If you haven't meet this you haven't lived.

Fair enough. The point I'm making is that we can't just blindly compare Slayer and Choppa, and objectively state that Slayer is better. If every other class was a perfect mirror, then I would agree.

I still do not agree with your assessment of WAAAAGH! vs. Chop Fasta!. Chop Fasta! is an ability that doesn't require a stance, doesn't require any setup, every Choppa in a wb setup should have it, no tactic slot, and it also has a 50% uptime. This frees up that tactic slot for the BO for much less effort. Coordinating the two means even less downtime as well.

The grass is always greener, and that applies to both sides. Order sees Destro wreck cities with Choppas, and destro sees Order wreck cities with Slayers. So I think the most reasonable conclusion we can come to is... cities suck.

[forsa]

Spoiler:

And you think 25% healdebuff non stacking
and a wounds debuff makes up for vigilance, block, crit for group, aoe snare and increased healing that does stack?
You're among the select few that think chosen is better than KotBS in that case.

Close bond? Or is summoning pet too hard for you?
I know no one runs it because it's bad but that's not the tactics fault it's the fact that morale bomb got nerfed and loner is now the build for WB lion, get into 2020.
Game was full of mSH before morale nerf now there's a handful, what do you think happened?

But good job providing proof of my bias by saying mSH self pump is OP and that type of self pump is only available to destro.

Bout as smart as IF I would call you out on order bias because WL has pet and mara doesn't.

Oh and WL has out going healdebuff mSH zero healdebuffs, must make WL much more OP than mSH with your logic.

Your assumption is 100% based upon that im an order player.... when i only play destro

EDIT: also claiming that absolute best class in the game, Black Orc, is inferior to SM says alot

Dragon talons with tactic = 20% reduced dmg output for 4 secs on everyone in 20 ft of target, no cd.
BO has Ya missed me, undefendable attack reduces one target's physical damage by 20% for 10 sec, requires block, 20 sec cd.
Savin me hide, increases toughness (doesn't stack with other toughness buffs) and reduces inc magic damage on group members by 20% for 4 sec, no cd.

Intimidating blow, morale drain, can slot tactic to reduce crit chance on affected target
Clobber, can slot tactic to drain morale.

Whispering Wind, silences target, reduces all ability cds in party by 5 secs. 20 sec cd

WAAAAAGH, reduces corp resistance in AoE, AoE dmg, increases AA damage for party by 25%, 5 sec cd, can slot tactic to make it reduce ability cd in party by 5 sec, but increases cd to 20 sec.

More career specific abilities
SM AoE interrupt with block 5% and armor, 10 sec cd.
Punt on block.

BO Cd increaser on one target.
Can't hit me 50% block, movement speed reduced to 60%, damage on block.
Get 'Em - AP increaser for group 100 ft.

Is BO tankier than SM? Yes full def BO is tankier (higher avoidance and hp)
Does SM have more and easier to use utility? Yes.

Please enlighten me where this BO best career in game ability is? Quite sure KotBS is the best tank in the game, and that that is the general consensus.

Funny that you forgot that BO has U Wot - unbreakable/unshatterable (!!!!) ALLAROUND (+damage, + def, + resisit/armor buff) that lasts 20 seconds, requires nothing (0 stance) and has laughable drawback of - 20% movespeed for 10 seconds of its downtime

Also Dragon Talon tactic does not work since 2018(Bug report still there), but whatever

Is BO tankier?
Well, when under U Wot and Cant Hit Me, BO stands in the Fort lord room entrance and cant be killed by order OP rdd.

[Ysaran]

Just to clarify, Shatter Limbs used to be Order Unique. It was given to mSH in the form of "Indigestion", 9 points up the Bouncin' Tree.

Sorry, my point was that since on Order only Slayer has CD increase then that makes Slayer a unique class on Order ann thus you are always welcome in wb /pary since you bring a skill that other classes can't conver.

Chop Fasta! I would argue is better than Whispering Winds and WAAAAAAAGH!. The reason for this is simple. It has the same uptime as WW and WAAA- at 50%. However, unlike the other two, you don't have to get to a specific stance. You can preload Chop Fasta! at the start of the fight, where SM and BO both have to use three GCD, two of which requires you to hit in melee if you Sudden Shift or Changin' Da Plan (I can't remember if these trigger GCD, but still), and a Choppa has to use one GCD at any given time.

Chop Fasta! is surely better than Wispering Wind since WW have to hit a enemy. But Chop Fasta! isn't better than WAAAAAAGH! because:
1) Changin' Da Plan doesn't waste a gdc
2) Using Rock 'Ard+Changin' Da Plan you can preload WAAAAAAGH! the same way as Chop Fasta

I do not have a counter argument to ID, as I am not a Slayer player. Anecdotally, as a former Destro player, here and on Live, I never really felt frustrated by a Slayer imploding me with ID/rampage. But GTDC has definitely frustrated me, not because of its damage, but that wonky ass pull. If there was at least a visual indicator of some kind for it to tell you you're within instant pull range, it wouldn't be that bad. It would still be frustrating, like any pull, but at least feel more justified. With Marauder, you have a long purple schlong rubbing up against you. With WL, there's a large white kitten nuzzling your scrote. With Choppa it's just... he's spinning, which HeliChoppas are doing even when there's no fight going and then you're flying through the air.

I understand the plight of Choppas vs Slayers, and maybe Chop Fasta! doesn't make up for the raw damage Slayers can put out, but boy do I wish I had an on demand cd reducer. Which is unique to destro, mind you.

I played Order for quite a time now and I can agree with you the pull is annoying AF, but that all of it: it's just annoying. To make Choppa's pull useful you have to stack Choppas in wb and that has sirius consequences since Choppa doesn't have moral bomb and also takes 15s to start dealing sirius damage, and let's not talk about the damage Choppas would takes