[Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

[Ysaran]

Ok fisrt: learn how to quote ppl. your post is mess, really hard to read without proper context.
Then lets see what we have here.

incorrect as runic shield with 11 points into the tree absorbs 895. which ill be usually 1 spell cast to remove it. so its a netlose of grudge 90% of the time. you also cannot slot the useless parry for grudge tactics because the class is already so far behind other tanks you need punishing knock and told ya so 100% leaving on 2 tactic slots which are already accounted for.

Ok you clearly don't know how absorbs work, if you want details just pm me. Told Ya SO is not mendatory. There othere classes that can provide AP (like Kotbs, Rune and WP), if they are in party you can skip on Told Ya So. The "useless parry tactic" is extremely strong and you not suing it it is prolly the reason why you are complaining about grudge starvation (notice that you are the only one complaining about it...). Even punishing knock isn't mendatory. again it depends on your party comp, there are planty of healdebuff in the game

the on demand knock down also REQUIRES A GREAT WEAPON the other knock down REQUIRES A SHIELD. so the only on demand CC the entire class has is using a 2h and talented. but yes the left tree could 100% use a rework. so no IB could have 2 on demand knockdowns. so your point is kinda irrelevant there.

That's true, but you take Cave In specifically bacuse it is on-demand. If you put Shield Of Reprisal on-demand no one would take Cave In. 2h IB is already extremely strong, there's no need to touch left tree

you cant stack WP as a SnB IB. SnB SMs do currently over 3x the dps to the new dummies compared to SnB IBs. hell a 2h IB with a *realistic* rotation keeping buffs up etc does less dps to new dummies than a SnB SM. also you will never be full of grudge using shield sweep on CD. 10sec CD with a 10 grudge cost with a max of 50 gain, so 40 gain overall. 1 runic shield is 30 grudge. 1 application of parry/crit which is on a 10 second duration is 15 each so 30 total grudge. you will only be 10 grudge gain AT BEST if you arent using ANY other buffs. also IBs grudge gain LOWERS the more you have, so even if you are building up grudge nicely once you start spending and gaining constantly its not a smooth cycle like a blackguards. a blackguard can easily play full hate if it wants, an IB can never play at full grudge. BG skills also require 30/60/90 hate to be full effectiveness while IBs are 25/50/75/100....that 100 grudge buff is basically nonexistant.

Why you can't stack WS? Stacking WS you gain nice ST damage, just forget about AoE. Keep up your bonuses and everything will work fine. Not all the tank are the same, some deal AoE damage, some don't. That's it. Again, slot Dwarven Riposte and you will have your gradge sky high all the time

IB punt is not one of the best punts in the game by any means. costs grudge which we are already starving for if buffing effectively, it has similar range than some of tanks punts (65ft) but the target doesnt get much height, hell even a untacticed kotbs/chosen punt is 45?ft i believe and then tacticed its super high punt which takes someone out the fight for atleast a good 5 seconds due to the airtime, so unless you're fighting on a perfectly flat area or next to a cliff (which any punt will work then) 70% of the time it gets cucked by terrain as it doesnt have the verticality or golf swing mega punt values like blackguard. if its verticality got upped by maybe 10-15% it would be fine imo.

Again talking about grudge starvation . Anyway, IB punt seems just fine to me. Maybe I'm the wizard of the punt and I don't know it

im fine with parry buff/bubble/crit buff not being AoE but the basekite buffs are pathetically weak in comparison to everything else currently, most of them you could essentially remove from your buffing rotation and nothing would be any different, str buff is marginally better than a pot/RP buff, armor buff is 200-300 better than armor pot, toughness buff is WAY worse than kotbs/chosen buff/debuff aura, which im also believe stack with other toughness debuffs/stat steals. the only real reason you would take an IB over any tank ingame is to buff a slayer parry/crit OR be a complete AP battery.

You want the IB cuz it can kite like a bastard, deal good damage, bring lot of utility (various buff, AP battery, AoE snare, healdebuff) and it's hard as rock. If you buff everything with your skill you don't have to use the "standard" potions wich let you open to more creative solution. With liniment you can get either: melee power, melee crit, ws, anti armor-pen or healing power (and I may be forgetting something). To me this is an asset, also considerimg that the same reasoning goes for your main Oath Friend. Kotbs aura doesn't satck with any kind of buff/debuff (for example slayer's thoughness debuff doesn't stack with kotbs aura)

inspiring attack is going to be in the 150-200 willpower region most of the time which is basically nullvoid resistance to spellcaster disrupt as they dont have high enough base willpower for that disrupt to outweigh the int the casters have meaning they basically have 0 disrupt anyways unless through RR points. willpower healing scaling is also so **** bad in game the difference it makes to grumble and mutter is at a full 300-400 willpower buff maybe an extra 20healing per tick....its honestly so little i dont even notice it. thorns pots *arent* a lot of damage but when a thorns pots is probably 1/3 of a classes damage due to how **** little it does because lack of any form of scaling i would say thats a pretty big class issue. also i have tested the healing power liniment with GnM, the +50 healing power made a huge difference of 4 extra healing per tick and the fact you even suggest using a healing power lini on a IB really downplays your arguement.

Again, you do ST damage. Thorne potion help you with AoE damage. I agree that WP/healing power scaling isn't much good, but still better than nothing.

SnB kotbs actually does *MORE* damage than SnB IB currently with the new elemental damage changes they got a few weeks ago, SnB chosen 100% do more damage than SnB IB without even a question due to the offensive nature of that tank and spirit damage. so that arguement is out of the window. if you think BOs are doing the same kinda tier of damage as IB/BG you must be playing with some extremely scuffed BOs, BO is so far and beyond other tanks atm its not even a question. ive seen khazrogg do top damage done in cities with a 2h black orc...AGAIN IBs cannot stack weapon skill as SnB and even as 2h IB usually has to stack alot of strength with WS mixed in when possible though i do believe the usual is stacking strength and melee power and just going for crit due to how GBF works among other things.

Ever heard of Oathmeal? He does a shitton of damage. Anyway, I can't argue about Kotbs/Chosen, I have neither (and I suppose you too). As far as I know both Kotbs and Chosen deal shitty damage and I'm used to let them behinde in damage with both my IB and BG.

the armor debuff isnt standard for every tank for one, only BG/IB has it and its less than armor pot value in armor shred unless you debuff at 100 grudge which never happens, and if you go left tree as SnB IB you dont have the basic tools you need to play SnB due to it being so far behind other tanks you needing to be a AP battery in organised content. even if you gave up some talents like GnM you would ONLY get an extra 2 points to spend in that tree after you got the other manditory things you need to even be invited to organised content in the first place. the AoE snare is nice, but other classes can do it in a cone effect at a longer range for the same tier of slow, so its effectiveness is greatly reduced cos of that. punishing knock is super good yes, its basically 1 of 4 things you take IB for, other being AP battery, crit buff, parry buff. and you talk down to people alot for someone who doesnt even play the class or faction and doesnt understand the basic concepts of what is wrong with the class despite all these other IB players disagreeing with you in this thread. wonder why that is...and yes my IBs name is Belegarrn in the guild reforged, before you whine some more you wont be able to find me in the armory for some reason and i dont know why...i cant even look myself up there.

Ok, again you seem to not know much about this game. Also I've ever said that all the tanks have armor debuff. BO has armor debuff too. Also, can you tell which classes have AoE snare? A worthy one I mean, not like Slayer's one.

this statement right here basically nullvoids your entire arguement, you're argueing about a class you do not play or know anything about it seems, despite other people who actively play IB at a higher level who have posted here, including earthcake above who is pretty well know and extremely good at IB disagreeing with you. IB is a defensive tank with less defensive purpose than the offensive tanks currently. THATS THE ISSUE. all the *defensive* qualities IB brings is replaced at a higher quality by other classes bar 2 buffs and 1 healing debuff OR basic consumables while the other classes having higher utility,higher damage, better group focus and support. why do you think EVERY IB in organised content is just turned into a guard and oathfriend the slayer AP/parry/crit battery bot. because IB doesnt fill any role or do anything better than any other tank except for the *1* specific class. IB is currently the most underperforming tank in game currently without a question or doubt. but ill stop feeding the troll who clearly doesnt play the class or understand the basics of its mechanics and the fundamental issues with it.

This is just pointless blathering. Don't really get the point, aside from being rude, I mean. Also notice that Earthcake agree with me since he says that SnB IB has the better damage of all tank. Since this is your thread, I would also like to point out that he doesn't support any of your change wich lead to what I'm saying since 2 day: your proposals are bad.
To conclude: Earthcake is a really good IB that I rember fighting many time (on contray of you, which I've never heard of) and while I agree he is very experienced he is also forgetting something: BO deals more damage than IB if properly specced, but then it is also squishy as **** ad with zero utility (no AoE snare unless Big Brawlin', no healdebuff, no parry/crit buff and so on) and zero mobility since BO is the tank with less mobility in the game.

P.S. stop with this "you don't know **** about IB and you don't know how to play it", you never seen me play it and you don't know what skill/build I use. If you want to argue use proper tool, like logical reasoning and hard proof.

[Parallels66]

"Even punishing knock isn't mendatory."

i stopped reading there. 10/10 trolling though i will say

[Parallels66]

Ever heard of Oathmeal? He does a shitton of damage. Anyway, I can't argue about Kotbs/Chosen, I have neither (and I suppose you too). As far as I know both Kotbs and Chosen deal shitty damage and I'm used to let them behinde in damage with both my IB and BG.

funny thing is oathmeal is the IB who told me about the 380dps with a *realistic* rotation in a group enviroment, obviously you can do more if youre just pooling grudge without buffing to maximise dps

[Ysaran]

No point on beating a dead horse. I wish you to play for a long time on this server and to have a lot of fun with the IB. We will see on the battlefield

[nuadarstark]

I find it ironic to read someone being rude and attacking people while berating people for not quoting properly and being rude. Pot meet kettle I guess, people don't see into their own mouths. Same goes for zero reading comprehension. Earthcake himself said and I quote "SnB IB is pathetic, period. You don't bring anything worthy to a wb.". Something you somehow twisted into "SnB IB has the best damage of all tanks". Which is beyond absurd. My S&B SM does better dps than 2h IB. Thinking that BO's also don't bring any utility is beyond absurd, not to mention the fact that to push damage they don't have to be squishy, just as I don't need to be squishy to push high dps with SM.

But sure, someone who's been actively playing the class for last couple of months is an absolute noob of a scrub, someone barely known who doesn't play the class and only took it to rr75 is the literal pool of knowledge. K.

Meaningful discussion here died on the page one, with only 2-3 comments afterwards being worthwhile. The rest is just flaming cause you like arguing Ysaran.

[Ysaran]

I find it ironic to read someone being rude and attacking people while berating people for not quoting properly and being rude. Pot meet kettle I guess, people don't see into their own mouths. Same goes for zero reading comprehension. Earthcake himself said and I quote "SnB IB is pathetic, period. You don't bring anything worthy to a wb.". Something you somehow twisted into "SnB IB has the best damage of all tanks". Which is beyond absurd. My S&B SM does better dps than 2h IB. Thinking that BO's also don't bring any utility is beyond absurd, not to mention the fact that to push damage they don't have to be squishy, just as I don't need to be squishy to push high dps with SM.

But sure, someone who's been actively playing the class for last couple of months is an absolute noob of a scrub, someone barely known who doesn't play the class and only took it to rr75 is the literal pool of knowledge. K.

Meaningful discussion here died on the page one, with only 2-3 comments afterwards being worthwhile. The rest is just flaming cause you like arguing Ysaran.

You are right, I've been rude. I apologized before and I apologize again now. But I would like to point out some things:
1)Parallels66 misquoted both me and kaloel (in the first page), and while kaloel wasn't rude at all, Parallels66 has been really rude and accused him of things without even knowing him
2)I've said that the proposals of Parallels66 were bad and until now I've seen no one of those "Great IBs" here saying they are greta proposal. The only one that wrote something is Earthcake and he just complained about IB, without spending one word on the topic (which is Parallels66 proposal, not "What is your opinion on IB")
3) I didn't misquote anyone, indeed that's what he wrote:

Is dmg a primary tank role ? no, but it s something, and something is better than nothing (which is what snb IB brings to a party compared to any other tank)

Did he miswritten? I don't know, but this statement is crystal clear.
4) You may not like how I did it, or the arguments I used, but atm I'm the only one that tryed to actually discuss the topic after being attacked by Parallels66

P.S. Don't take this as an attack, I have nothing against any of you, I'm just stating some facts

[kmark101]

IB has one crucial problem and that is physical damage type only vs. armor meta. Removing armor potion would solve every IB issue. Increasing the value armor debuff skills would solve every IB issue. Increasing the uptime of armor penetration WS skill would solve every IB issue. Changing some damage types to corp would solve every IB issue.

I can keep on going, but you got my point.

("Great IB's" mostly either specced full glass and never guarding, just running around with great movement OR super defensive built and do sub 70k damage in a city... both other order tank can do similar or much better under the same circumstances).

[nuadarstark]

3) I didn't misquote anyone, indeed that's what he wrote:

Is dmg a primary tank role ? no, but it s something, and something is better than nothing (which is what snb IB brings to a party compared to any other tank)

Did he miswritten? I don't know, but this statement is crystal clear.

He's very clearly talking about 2h, come on. From the start of his comment he's talking about S&B IB being useless, 2h being the only thing you can do in WB gameplay and IB being designed with 2h in mind. Did he misstype there? Yeah, but the thought behind his comment is fairly aparent from the content of the rest of it. You're just trying to deflect once someone called you out.

Anyway, none of this is about. No need to continue in this here. IB rework is something devs didn't gave high priority, given how many other reworks they promised the community before, so it's unlikely to get changed any time soon anyway.

[DokB]

I think Watch An’ Learn could be touched up a bit, a small boost in its uptime to 15 or 20 seconds. Compare it with other WS buffs such as the BO Follow Me Lead which has no resource mechanic, lasts 20 seconds and affects you and your defensive target at any range.

Maybe even give the IB the same super punt the BG has at 100 grudge, because why should BG have all the fun?

Doesn’t really help its position in WB play, but these small changes would be nice QoL.

[Ysaran]

There are 2 change I would like to see:
1) move the CD increaser granted by Furious Reprisal from Shield of Reprisal to Shield Sweep. What's the point of 5s CD increaser if for 3s the target is knocked down? The CD increaser effective time is 2s, just a waste of tactic slot atm. Also, Destruction has 2 CD reducer (one tacticed and talented) so seems o my fair to have 2 CD increaser
2)Overprotective should hit the Oath Friend attacker and not IB's target. As pointed out by Earthcake IB lacks AoE damage, both because it have more useful skill to fire and because all AoE skill have CD. Overprotective should be like a thorn potion with 25% proc chance. If the damage is to much a ICD could be added.