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[Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

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hammerhead
Posts: 248

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#51 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:09 am

Ysaran wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:13 am
There are 2 change I would like to see:
1) move the CD increaser granted by Furious Reprisal from Shield of Reprisal to Shield Sweep. What's the point of 5s CD increaser if for 3s the target is knocked down? The CD increaser effective time is 2s, just a waste of tactic slot atm. Also, Destruction has 2 CD reducer (one tacticed and talented) so seems o my fair to have 2 CD increaser
2)Overprotective should hit the Oath Friend attacker and not IB's target. As pointed out by Earthcake IB lacks AoE damage, both because it have more useful skill to fire and because all AoE skill have CD. Overprotective should be like a thorn potion with 25% proc chance. If the damage is to much a ICD could be added.
It'll be a bit too much, look at how the Shatter Limbs works. The original tactic works best on melee DoK in small scale. The increasing is applied even when the target is immune to knockdown. So every 10 seconds is potentially possible. I'm embarrassed to ask, does anyone even go to a smallscale with a shield? A very niche thing.

Second. I do not like such damage options at all, for this there is a kobs / chosen , bw / sorcerer. If this topic specifically emphasizes grudge management, then Thirst For Death variants would look good at this point.

And then I would move the "Overprotective" tactics to the place of Oath of Vengeance. And would give her a different quality more suitable in meaning -

You take your defence target under your personal warding. Since you are 15 feet away from it, your guarded groupmates takes 5% less damage from all sources. But you get 10% more damage. Requires a shield.

Such is the exclusive.
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Earthcake
Posts: 11

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#52 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:10 am

I avoided posted proposals because, playing mostly IB, i m most certainly biased...

Trying to be less biased as possible, i really like Dokb proposal(s) :

(these are ideas, and not meant to be all applied at the same time ;) )


- SM and BO got same punt, Kotbs and Chosen got same punt, BG got best punt and IB got "baby" one that ALSO costs 25 grudges. Since punt is very often used on tank so u can kill his guardee, losing 25 grudges at that exact time u want to have max grudges to burst the guardee is a very high cost to pay. And again, to have only a fraction of what a BG gets.

- WS is a huge problem for IBs, so i agree with Dokb that something should be done in that direction. BUT, please do NOT buff watch and learn duration nor reduce it s CD, the amount of AP you can give to a slayer is alrdy strong, it could get game breaking very fast.
Why not instead change Ancestor's fury to buff WS/crit instead of STR/crit ? IBs got 2 STR buffs and they don t stack, that s pretty bad design.

- IB could also be made to be more mobile if that s the direction devs want to take, add a 10% disrupt chance to avalanche, so maybe it will be specced for/slotted, and helps to keep up when guarding a white lion pouncing every 0.01sec.

- Vengeful strike could use some love, BG toughness buff also heals them for exemple.

- A CD increaser, on whatever skill would be a good idea. Right now, SnB IB defend and buffs his teamates (not better than any other tank in the game, usually even far worse) and wait for them to carry him. Yes they are SUUUUUUPER tanky, but it s useless, noone gives a crap how long it took the other wb to kill u when all ur teamates are dead, and most of the time, they won t even kill u, they ll keep u as a morale pet ignoring u cuz u r useless. SnB IBs only delay losing when u r losing. They need something to help with the fighting, not only being there unkillable.


The grudge cost of buffs should NOT get changed in my opinion, it would nerf the AP battery build which is the only thing snb IBs are good for (except in a kiting wb where you are very good, but let s be honest, you won t spend alot of time in a kiting wb).

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Ysaran
Posts: 774

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#53 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:48 am

hammerhead wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:09 am
It'll be a bit too much, look at how the Shatter Limbs works. The original tactic works best on melee DoK in small scale. The increasing is applied even when the target is immune to knockdown. So every 10 seconds is potentially possible. I'm embarrassed to ask, does anyone even go to a smallscale with a shield? A very niche thing.

Second. I do not like such damage options at all, for this there is a kobs / chosen , bw / sorcerer. If this topic specifically emphasizes grudge management, then Thirst For Death variants would look good at this point.

And then I would move the "Overprotective" tactics to the place of Oath of Vengeance. And would give her a different quality more suitable in meaning -

You take your defence target under your personal warding. Since you are 15 feet away from it, your guarded groupmates takes 5% less damage from all sources. But you get 10% more damage. Requires a shield.

Such is the exclusive.
About Shield Sweep/Furious Reprisal:
I get your point and I may agree. I woukd like to point out that Shield Sweep hit at most 5 targets so it would be too much op. Also if inceasing the CD by 5s is too much maybe it could be lower to 3s. Atm the debuff last 5s, which isn't enough to make it worthy. If you don't want to change to Shield Sweep then the duration should be increased to 10s.
About Overprotective:
The OP is the only one struggling with the grudges so I think that it's not a problem, also he proposed to change some damage from phisical to magical exactly because he think that damage is a problem. My proposal would really increase IB damage by much, just a bit. Also consider that atm IB have many other worthy tactic so to take the "new" Overprotective it should sacrifice something else.
About your proposal:
I like it, but it seems to strong for a tactic. IB doesn't really care about receiving damage increased by 10%. Maybe an ability with a long CD like 30s or 40s.
Last edited by Ysaran on Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ysaran
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Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#54 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:02 am

Earthcake wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:10 am
- SM and BO got same punt, Kotbs and Chosen got same punt, BG got best punt and IB got "baby" one that ALSO costs 25 grudges. Since punt is very often used on tank so u can kill his guardee, losing 25 grudges at that exact time u want to have max grudges to burst the guardee is a very high cost to pay. And again, to have only a fraction of what a BG gets.
On this I don't agree. BG's punt must be charged to be good, and you have so many hate-spenders that sometime you have to delay the punt in order to have enough hate. Also it have 20s CD and honestly 10s is much better. Maybe the cost should be lowered by 5 grudge and the height of the punt should be slightly increased, but I think it's mostly ok.
Earthcake wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:10 am
- WS is a huge problem for IBs, so i agree with Dokb that something should be done in that direction. BUT, please do NOT buff watch and learn duration nor reduce it s CD, the amount of AP you can give to a slayer is alrdy strong, it could get game breaking very fast.
Why not instead change Ancestor's fury to buff WS/crit instead of STR/crit ? IBs got 2 STR buffs and they don t stack, that s pretty bad design.
Totally agree
Earthcake wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:10 am
- IB could also be made to be more mobile if that s the direction devs want to take, add a 10% disrupt chance to avalanche, so maybe it will be specced for/slotted, and helps to keep up when guarding a white lion pouncing every 0.01sec.
I get your point but I see you are talking from a 2h IB perspective. If you have a shield Hold The Line is enough to keep you at +30% speed. Problem is thta SnB IB is a bit lacking atm. Actually I've also stated another problem: on contrary of Order, Destruction is heavily melee oriented so often there isn't much to disrupt.
Earthcake wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:10 am
- Vengeful strike could use some love, BG toughness buff also heals them for exemple.
That skill is a joke. Maybe usefull in duel if you don't have problem with grudges
Earthcake wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:10 am
- A CD increaser, on whatever skill would be a good idea. Right now, SnB IB defend and buffs his teamates (not better than any other tank in the game, usually even far worse) and wait for them to carry him. Yes they are SUUUUUUPER tanky, but it s useless, noone gives a crap how long it took the other wb to kill u when all ur teamates are dead, and most of the time, they won t even kill u, they ll keep u as a morale pet ignoring u cuz u r useless. SnB IBs only delay losing when u r losing. They need something to help with the fighting, not only being there unkillable.
I like that you appreciate my proposal
Earthcake wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 7:10 am
The grudge cost of buffs should NOT get changed in my opinion, it would nerf the AP battery build which is the only thing snb IBs are good for (except in a kiting wb where you are very good, but let s be honest, you won t spend alot of time in a kiting wb).
I agree, again
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Sulorie
Posts: 5019

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#55 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:43 am

I stopped reading after the complaint about a lacking on-demand knockdown, especially in comparison to BG. Someone playing IB, in order to start such a topic, should know, that there is a 2nd one in 2h path.
The armor pots, a new ROR invention, was nice to read too. I enjoyed it.
Dying is no option.

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Ysaran
Posts: 774

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#56 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:16 am

Sulorie wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:43 am
I stopped reading after the complaint about a lacking on-demand knockdown, especially in comparison to BG. Someone playing IB, in order to start such a topic, should know, that there is a 2nd one in 2h path.
The armor pots, a new ROR invention, was nice to read too. I enjoyed it.
He knew about the on-demand 2h knockdown. But he also wanted shielded on-demand knockdown so he could have on-demand knockdown whether he spec SnB or 2h
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Earthcake
Posts: 11

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#57 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:48 am

Parallels66 wrote:
Sun Nov 01, 2020 9:20 pm
this is whats ive come up with so far for some basic fixes/changes for IB to help improve their abilities in larger scale content where they currently get left behind massively compared to SM/KotBS. Any comments/feedback on the changes above/ideas are obviously welcome. lets hope we can get some well needed changes inplace.
This is the end of OP's post. He says IBs r left behind massively compared to SM/KotBS, and i think everybody can agree with that statement. He also says comments/feedback on his ideas r welcome.
Why attack him directly when u think his ideas r not good, when he said he s open to discuss them ?

His statement is still valid, IBs are not appreciated, u still can get wbs cuz of the lack of tanks, but given the choice, u will get picked last unless having something really good that others don t have (in my case, i smell like warm croissants).

Ppl refusing to discuss about IBs needing buffs are destro players that feel like order is alrdy too powerfull and refuse ORDER (not IBs) getting a buff.
Game balance seems quite ok actually, except in fortress which i cannot comment on since i didn t play destro since the fly thing was added.

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Parallels66
Posts: 57

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#58 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:31 am

Ysaran wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:13 am
2)Overprotective should hit the Oath Friend attacker and not IB's target. As pointed out by Earthcake IB lacks AoE damage, both because it have more useful skill to fire and because all AoE skill have CD. Overprotective should be like a thorn potion with 25% proc chance. If the damage is to much a ICD could be added.
overprotective tactic already does that...when oathfriend is attacked 25% chance attacker takes 150 damage.

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Ysaran
Posts: 774

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#59 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:51 am

Parallels66 wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 10:31 am
Ysaran wrote:
Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:13 am
2)Overprotective should hit the Oath Friend attacker and not IB's target. As pointed out by Earthcake IB lacks AoE damage, both because it have more useful skill to fire and because all AoE skill have CD. Overprotective should be like a thorn potion with 25% proc chance. If the damage is to much a ICD could be added.
overprotective tactic already does that...when oathfriend is attacked 25% chance attacker takes 150 damage.
My bad, I thought that worked like BO's Loudmouth. Memory has played me
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kmark101
Posts: 375

Re: [Buff Suggestion] Some ideas to improve the quality of IB's in larger scale content.

Post#60 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:48 pm

Turning Ancestor's Fury to WS/crit would not be a good change since Watch n Learn already gives WS, it would be the same problem as currently with the str buff that they don't stack. Instead, it should be turned into armor penetration % for x length, so that would finally stack (or if sticking to the original tactic, turn it into melee power?)

My problem with Watch N Learn really is the length, 10s is 2 swings, but I understand that it can't be longer due to the AP battery effect. So what about decreasing the AP battery effect a bit to balance out a longer Watch N Learn?
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