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[Sorc] Suggestions

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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dwyur
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Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#61 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 1:55 pm

iceydealer wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 9:43 amThis has to be an ironic post... I can't believe somebody managed to say something that actually got me to post.

You are telling me that you unironically believe "Sorcs are vastly superior" while also believing "Sorc AOE also has Shadow Knives for burst and GON for procs and sustain;" you really cannot be expecting people to take you seriously.
there are so many posts like this on forum, also in this thread alone.
the longest posts seem to be the most bonkers
Dirkfunk - 82 Runepriest
Dwyur - 81 Sorc | Deloused - 70 DoK | Durtknap- 64 Choppa

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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#62 » Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:13 pm

Some of you need to learn the mechanics of this game before you whine. The difference between Magus -370+ and Knight 230-250 resists is a difference of 8-10 percentage points off of a stock 40-45% resists.

So a Sorc will be hitting 15-20% spirit resists while a BW will hit 23-30% elemental. That's a 80-85pp vs 70-73pp difference, or a 15-20% DPS boost right off the bat.

ASSUMING a Knight will be able to get to all of your targets, which is often not true in standoff situations. And please, "it'll just get cleansed" is such a nonsensical answer considering Destro procs curses out the ass for simply breathing (DOK procs). GON does about as much, if not more damage than Slayer ID per hit and is a guaranteed 5 hits vs. 2-4 for ID. If you say "it can be cleansed" then well, literally everything Order has that Destro cries about can also "be cleansed" only Destro has a group purge (Khaine's Withdrawal) and two superior CD reducers while Order does not. Destro cleanse is literally 2x or more better than Order's.

As for Shadow Knives, like most focus spells it can bend for a split second around LOS and corners, and you get two decent ticks in a 2s burst on demand. SS/BH -> Shadow Knives is some of the easiest and most effective AOE burst you can get in this game.

Atropik
Posts: 708

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#63 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:34 am

teiloh wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:13 pm That's a 80-85pp vs 70-73pp difference, or a 15-20% DPS boost right off the bat.
Can you please share the secret technique of how to count resist percentage in renown ranks? Im just curious xd Also, on a previous page weve been told that ress debuff provides 20-30% of DPS boost, but you just cut it twice - I assume we are moving in a right direction, thats for sure.
teiloh wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:13 pmASSUMING a Knight will be able to get to all of your targets, which is often not true in standoff situations. And please, "it'll just get cleansed" is such a nonsensical answer considering Destro procs curses out the ass for simply breathing (DOK procs). GON does about as much, if not more damage than Slayer ID per hit and is a guaranteed 5 hits vs. 2-4 for ID. If you say "it can be cleansed" then well, literally everything Order has that Destro cries about can also "be cleansed" only Destro has a group purge (Khaine's Withdrawal) and two superior CD reducers while Order does not. Destro cleanse is literally 2x or more better than Order's.

As for Shadow Knives, like most focus spells it can bend for a split second around LOS and corners, and you get two decent ticks in a 2s burst on demand. SS/BH -> Shadow Knives is some of the easiest and most effective AOE burst you can get in this game.
The main issue with GON is not that it does not enough damage, (damage is really wierd by the way, but its ok, damage can not be useless), GON just not fit the rotation in any spec - it will not help you to kill anyone, of course you may cast it on a battlefield and someday even secure the kill with it, but its not like you killed the guy with GoN or GoN made any significant impact in someones death. Slayers ID you took as an example is not the same case actually, cause slayer has a proper, wellknown way of how to kill people in a blob with AoE abilities, - group up together with friends in a narrow place, press - No escape + Wild Swing + SL + ID and finish with Flurry. Slayer tries to make a pressure that cannot be overhealed and multiple DoT+proc here work as they should.

Sorc/BW aoe spec as it was designed in this game 13 years ago, tries to break the enemy with heavy nukes, even before the healer may react. Its so sad the game balancing here in RoR and back on Live went in a different direction, now we can see these 24/24 city fights last for 30+ mins, where people try to kill the opposite team one by one literaly chasing every other guy before the healer put on a rez button, ridiculous.

But back to the topic - bombing in 2020 is not a meta anymore and range Aoe bombing is even worse. There is everything wrong even with the rotation youve described, castin GoN will take you 2 seconds+ 3s for SS+ 2s fo 2 icd, and thn another 2s for 2 ticks of SK, so you just spent 10+ seconds and dealt around 3k aoe damage, assuming that nothing get disrupted and cleansed during this time, is this "the most effective AOE burst we can get"? Bad news if so. This rotation will also require someone not a tank or healer (cause they have a tremendous amount of disrupt here in RoR) to stand still and alive in front of you, in a 80ft range, with nobody in a HTL next to him taking you nukes and doing nothing in response, and also a Magus to debuff him, okay.

I fully agree on your statement that cleanse is not an argument here, but so is Magus, nobody build wbs on a fact that there should be a Sorc+Magus runin around like a lovely couple, trying to debuff each others target. Classes should be compared only to their mirrors, and not to the opposite realm. Like for example, Zealots Tzeench Talon m1 witch cut 1.5k armor and 500 of all resistance and leaves you extremely vulnerable to all types of damage, so what? Well, you can surprise some new to the game pal with 3k doombolt, make a video, but this does not look like a nice strategy you can defeat your enemies with or a balance issue.

- SK is bad cause its replased with Pit of shades on 100% uptime, it wouldnt be that bad if sorc had 3 other different aoe target based instant nukes, he could combine SK with, but he hasnt. And thats why FFB on BW is so nice, - it perfecly fits single target rotation together with Nova+WH+Sear
- GoN is bad cause game walked far away from it in a different direction, plus having Gon+SK leaves sorc without ID, plus again, sorc has nothing to combine it with, except the rotation youve mentioned, weird and extremely long rotation to be honest.
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Naelar
Posts: 296

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#64 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:30 am

teiloh wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 1:55 pm Sorcs are vastly superior to BW in coordinated/group/zerg play.

Spirit debuff is full debuffed by Magus using a spammable AOE damage ability. There are no -3xx elemental debuffs on Order ever since resist auras and SM debuff got nerfed.

For Corp, Zealots have a stackable -Corp debuff with Corrosive.

In groups, BW "advantages" such as stun and heal debuff are mostly a joke.

This means Sorcs will do 20-30% more DPS with the same spells. Sorc AOE also has Shadow Knives for burst and GON for procs and sustain.

BW's only saving grace is probably Flashfire/Lingering Fires/Wildfire and Burning Head if they spec in the other direction. But Sorcs have their own top-notch tactics.
You forgot about Funnel Power, which adds (depending on the target's gear, resistances, etc) an extra 10-20% damage to everything a BW casts, regardless of who in their party might be giving them buffs.
Please.. tell us more about how sorc is 'vastly superior'....

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dwyur
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Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#65 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:08 pm

Anytime you're casting GoN is time better spent casting instant Ice Spikes into IW spam with the occassionaly Surging Pain x1/x2, back into IW spam, until M2 Focused Mind is up and you can get off 3-4 Shattered Shadows, this will clear out an area as you can crit for 1200+ off 1.5 second 20feet AoE nuke, throw in an IW and SP you can clear entire sections. Since making this thread after hitting 40 on Sorc and now RR61 with fully Vanq (think the last piece and +4% dmg set bonus has made a difference) this is the rotation I've settled on and with a guard and a WB it's working out a lot better obviously than when I first hit 40. I tried to go full class cannon but at 60 I can go full magic crit% & then 2 Futile Strikes, seems to be the better choice.

I still think some changes worth looking at/testing:
Disastrous Cascade should be able to be cast while moving
M4's as previously discussed
A cleanse as previously mentioned
Dirkfunk - 82 Runepriest
Dwyur - 81 Sorc | Deloused - 70 DoK | Durtknap- 64 Choppa

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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#66 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:39 pm

Unless the spell was radically changed, GoN crit for 400-500 on my Sorc on live. The SS numbers you're giving sound about right. There are a number of ways to speed up casting as well, and it's only .5s more on the rotation than a GCD.

GoN was perhaps a bit stronger live where each tick could multi-proc, but with ICDs the way they are it's probably been somewhat devalued. Still a very powerful DoT.
Naelar wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:30 am You forgot about Funnel Power, which adds (depending on the target's gear, resistances, etc) an extra 10-20% damage to everything a BW casts, regardless of who in their party might be giving them buffs.
Please.. tell us more about how sorc is 'vastly superior'....
Funnel does like 70-120 a tick? If that's 10-20% of a BW's damage I don't get what you're complaining about. It only procs on direct damage and also does a significant amount of damage back to you.

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teiloh
Posts: 691

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#67 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:44 pm

Atropik wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 7:34 am Can you please share the secret technique of how to count resist percentage in renown ranks? Im just curious xd Also, on a previous page weve been told that ress debuff provides 20-30% of DPS boost, but you just cut it twice - I assume we are moving in a right direction, thats for sure.
20-30% counts the fact that Knights aren't as omnipresent as Magus debuff, if you have a decent Magus. Vs groups with Knight/Chosen resists that are debuffed by Knights/Magus you'll see a 15-20%ish increase in damage. Then there are situations where you'll have Healer Resists and debuff, healer resists and no debuff ... etc.
The main issue with GON is not that it does not enough damage, (damage is really wierd by the way, but its ok, damage can not be useless), GON just not fit the rotation in any spec - it will not help you to kill anyone, of course you may cast it on a battlefield and someday even secure the kill with it, but its not like you killed the guy with GoN or GoN made any significant impact in someones death. Slayers ID you took as an example is not the same case actually, cause slayer has a proper, wellknown way of how to kill people in a blob with AoE abilities, - group up together with friends in a narrow place, press - No escape + Wild Swing + SL + ID and finish with Flurry. Slayer tries to make a pressure that cannot be overhealed and multiple DoT+proc here work as they should.

...

But back to the topic - bombing in 2020 is not a meta anymore and range Aoe bombing is even worse. There is everything wrong even with the rotation youve described, castin GoN will take you 2 seconds+ 3s for SS+ 2s fo 2 icd, and thn another 2s for 2 ticks of SK, so you just spent 10+ seconds and dealt around 3k aoe damage, assuming that nothing get disrupted and cleansed during this time, is this "the most effective AOE burst we can get"? Bad news if so. This rotation will also require someone not a tank or healer (cause they have a tremendous amount of disrupt here in RoR) to stand still and alive in front of you, in a 80ft range, with nobody in a HTL next to him taking you nukes and doing nothing in response, and also a Magus to debuff him, okay.
Everything in this game is slow. GCD alone is 1.5s, GoN barely costs more and there are a number of items and Focused Mind to reduce your cast speeds if you want it.
- SK is bad cause its replased with Pit of shades on 100% uptime, it wouldnt be that bad if sorc had 3 other different aoe target based instant nukes, he could combine SK with, but he hasnt. And thats why FFB on BW is so nice, - it perfecly fits single target rotation together with Nova+WH+Sear
- GoN is bad cause game walked far away from it in a different direction, plus having Gon+SK leaves sorc without ID, plus again, sorc has nothing to combine it with, except the rotation youve mentioned, weird and extremely long rotation to be honest.
Key thing to note is that SK stacks between multiple Sorcs and follows a target, Pit does not. Of course, Ice Spikes and IW are still a factor but they will probably be used earlier on.

Cheermazon
Posts: 17

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#68 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 12:37 am

teiloh wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 8:13 pm If you say "it can be cleansed" then well, literally everything Order has that Destro cries about can also "be cleansed" only Destro has a group purge (Khaine's Withdrawal) and two superior CD reducers while Order does not. Destro cleanse is literally 2x or more better than Order's.
Except Khaine's Withdrawal is incredibly niche, and rarely ran in an organized warband. The vast majority of warband leaders request Rampaging Siphon to supplement morale drops, but it also serves as a massive burst heal when needed. Khaine's Withdrawal is nice, but a moot point when you've wasted an M2 on debuffs that are immediately reapplied, and lose whats basically an instant full-heal for your party.

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emiliorv
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Posts: 1295

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#69 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:34 am

teiloh wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 6:39 pm GoN crit for 400-500 on my Sorc on live.
So you were talking all this time based on how the things was on live servers...LMAO

Lorsten
Posts: 57

Re: [Sorc] Suggestions

Post#70 » Tue Nov 24, 2020 11:02 am

Noone really uses GoN in their builds, cuz typical build is 1-3. And even if you put points in 2nd tree (but why? You dont care about ur performance?), GoN is the last thing you want to cast in rvr.

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