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SH proposal

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Grunbag
Former Staff
Posts: 1881

Re: SH proposal

Post#21 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:50 am

Oglaf wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:06 am
Grunbag wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:46 pm I might be confused but from today patch we implemented what you are proposing :

- He’s a biggun already increase Wounds by 160

- Pet range is 100 feet for gas (same as live for all pets)
See this is the inherent problem to SH design, nicely highlighted:

SH is basically a stance-based class, much like Marauder and Shadow Warrior. Except their stances are tied to these weak pets. Imagine if Shadow Warrior had to keep a flimsy pet alive to stay in his or her stance. This has been the core issue of SH ever since live. I don't think SH should have to be forced to waste a valuable tactic slot just to be able to function properly. It essentially makes it a 3-tactic slot class.

This, as mentioned, is the fault of Mythic and not the RoR devs. They kinda had the SH design flaw flung into their laps, lol.
Squig herder is not a stance career but a pet career , the only stance it has now is squig armor and it’s not tied to the pet anymore.

Yes SW and Mara can’t lose their stance , and yes squig can lose ONE bonus if pet die.

But SW and Mara has to switch stance to use abilties from different trees . Not squig herder which can use any ability with any pet and bonus.

Imagine if Squig had to switch squig to use ability in different tree ? See you’re reasoning can’t work as it’s 2 differents mechanics
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Oglaf
Suspended
Posts: 279

Re: SH proposal

Post#22 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:55 am

Grunbag wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:50 am
Oglaf wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:06 am
Grunbag wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:46 pm I might be confused but from today patch we implemented what you are proposing :

- He’s a biggun already increase Wounds by 160

- Pet range is 100 feet for gas (same as live for all pets)
See this is the inherent problem to SH design, nicely highlighted:

SH is basically a stance-based class, much like Marauder and Shadow Warrior. Except their stances are tied to these weak pets. Imagine if Shadow Warrior had to keep a flimsy pet alive to stay in his or her stance. This has been the core issue of SH ever since live. I don't think SH should have to be forced to waste a valuable tactic slot just to be able to function properly. It essentially makes it a 3-tactic slot class.

This, as mentioned, is the fault of Mythic and not the RoR devs. They kinda had the SH design flaw flung into their laps, lol.
Squig herder is not a stance career but a pet career , the only stance it has now is squig armor and it’s not tied to the pet anymore.

Yes SW and Mara can’t lose their stance , and yes squig can lose ONE bonus if pet die.

But SW and Mara has to switch stance to use abilties from different trees . Not squig herder which can use any ability with any pet and bonus.

Imagine if Squig had to switch squig to use ability in different tree ? See you’re reasoning can’t work as it’s 2 differents mechanics
Now, that's just not correct. I'll grant you as much that they're not as tied to their stances as WL/SW in that sense, but to call them entirely stanceless would be wrong. The WL/SW/SH/MARA mirror situation has always been more complex than other careers, but I definitely would still call SH a stance-based class but perhaps... a hybrid one?

Losing your Gas Squig is definitely similar to a SW getting knocked out of his or her range-increasing stance and can be just as debilitating - especially after you guys nerfed the range on Quick Shootin' by removing the range-increasing tactic.

That is how, as I said in another post, the SH career design flaw has always been the overreliance on their pets. Ever since the Mythic days.

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Grunbag
Former Staff
Posts: 1881

Re: SH proposal

Post#23 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:03 pm

Squig herder can use any ability in QS with gas squig range bonus , which SW can’t do. SH can have 5% crit from horned with all BS / Bouncin tree abilties which SW can’t have .

Squig can lose those bonus when pet die but SW can’t lose it.

Different mechanic , mirrored buff .
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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Neverever
Posts: 193

Re: SH proposal

Post#24 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:20 pm

The recent patch brought RSH a considerable dmg output, which I am happy with, with the cost of range decrease on its QS tree. While I understand the logic behind it, that is, the more dmg comes with taking more risk, I think some of the aspects to it were not considered well enough. The dmg difference mainly comes from the newly designed tactics that you need at least 2 empty tactic slots for it. Having forced already to spend 2 of its tactic slots to reach a good amount of required stats, RSH's are delimited into 65ft with light armor, already decreased toughness and well double armor is no more a defensive strategy for the ranged squig herder. The significant amount of RSH gameplay is about not letting your enemies to catch you, because once you are caught you are highly likely dead no matter you have a healer or guard. For instance, in 6vs6 the key point for RSH is to kite and contribute at the same time. Usually, when you are caught the way to get out of it is usually provided by the defensive morals on your team otherwise you are more likely dead. However, now beıng limited to 65ft and not able to slot Run Away or %25 detaunt on being hit you are a walking pinata of renown. I think squigs should grant different stat bonuses to the herder like SW stances to have one of the tactic slots available for a defensive strategy. Run away or Who is behind ya maybe.. I think some of the changes are really well thought and matches the idea behind kiting and skirmish. However, adding increased range over all these changes would simply make RSH a overperforming ez mode class with which as a devoted SH player since live I can't agree.

Jurki
Posts: 35

Re: SH proposal

Post#25 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:02 pm

Neverever wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:25 am
zij83 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:14 am
wargrimnir wrote: Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:58 pm Man, remember a couple weeks/months back when we specifically asked people to put their proposals onto the BDF if they wanted a chance at seeing their wishlist implemented, and then only a few people bothered doing so and it was mostly a copy/paste of the changes we already made to SW, which clearly wasn't the intent but gave use the green light to go ahead in confidence since our last round of changes were apparently well received in the long run?

Crazy times.
At risking a ban here, I'm just going to say one of the reasons I don't post as much as I did or really make suggestions anymore, is that when I see other people, or in my own experience I do, it is sometimes quickly followed by what seems like trolling from you. I have talked to people who have gotten a ban warning (myself included) for really just making a passionate plea for a change. The justification for this is often that these people are "being disrespectful do the development team". So when you come on here making comments like the one above and then later ask people for feedback it just comes off like you're trolling your own community. If you feel the need to ban me for saying this, I mean you have that power, but honestly in all respect I'm just trying to point out something that I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that you don't understand you are doing.
Well, let me correct an unfairness about this post. Wargrimnir is probably the most tolerating moderator on the forums. Yes, he is sarcastic most of the the time on his replies to people which is interpreted mostly as not being taken serious but I don't think that's the case. Previously, I had gotten a ban by simply correcting some of the errors and misconceptions a balance moderator had about a class before without being even prewarned. Well ironically that moderator was taken out of the team later... However, I have gotten a few warnings from Wargrim so far but never a complete ban from a topic or forums. So he is fairly patient on that matter. In order to get a ban one must be really asking for it.
Well sarcasm is a form of passive aggressive behaviour. Someone with that position in this community should be more careful in his replies. Behaviour like that is just highly irritating and lowers the possibility for people to engage in a constructive way. Also when he is mainly reacting to some troll comments of some users he also contributes to a shift of attention from mainly constructive discussions away to a focuse of some trolls speaking hate etc. Just to clarify. Regarding his "answer" to my proposal it seemed, that the devs didnt even see the proposal a few weeks ago.

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Oglaf
Suspended
Posts: 279

Re: SH proposal

Post#26 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:09 pm

Grunbag wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:03 pm Squig herder can use any ability in QS with gas squig range bonus , which SW can’t do. SH can have 5% crit from horned with all BS / Bouncin tree abilties which SW can’t have .

Squig can lose those bonus when pet die but SW can’t lose it.

Different mechanic , mirrored buff .
One which is objectively terrible, one which is superior.

Which brings me back to my original point that having their "stances" tied to weak pets is the inherent flaw in SH design.

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knick
Posts: 206

Re: SH proposal

Post#27 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:21 pm

Oglaf wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:09 pm
Grunbag wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:03 pm Squig herder can use any ability in QS with gas squig range bonus , which SW can’t do. SH can have 5% crit from horned with all BS / Bouncin tree abilties which SW can’t have .

Squig can lose those bonus when pet die but SW can’t lose it.

Different mechanic , mirrored buff .
One which is objectively terrible, one which is superior.

Which brings me back to my original point that having their "stances" tied to weak pets is the inherent flaw in SH design.
you have no stance with a SH. A stance implies that you can youse certain attacks only in certain attitude.
to say one is superior and one is terrible lies in the eye of the beholder. if you ask a SW he would love to youse all abilities at same time. Best example for this is the suggestion some days ago from a marauder to make certain abilities usable all time independently from a stance.
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adamska2
Posts: 91

Re: SH proposal

Post#28 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:26 pm

Hello, guys i want to purpose you someting about the Msquig pet.

My Sugestion is to make the Horned Squig pet similare to the WL pet.

Because of the big CD of the Horned Squig " 30 sec " you are forced to play with the tactics I Got Lots .
So their is not many choice, not many posibility you can do with your tactics as Msquig if you are forced to take I Got Lots.

You have alredy 3 core tactics POYOS / ST / SB and now I got lots


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Last edited by adamska2 on Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Neverever
Posts: 193

Re: SH proposal

Post#29 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:30 pm

Jurki wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:02 pm
Neverever wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:25 am
zij83 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:14 am

At risking a ban here, I'm just going to say one of the reasons I don't post as much as I did or really make suggestions anymore, is that when I see other people, or in my own experience I do, it is sometimes quickly followed by what seems like trolling from you. I have talked to people who have gotten a ban warning (myself included) for really just making a passionate plea for a change. The justification for this is often that these people are "being disrespectful do the development team". So when you come on here making comments like the one above and then later ask people for feedback it just comes off like you're trolling your own community. If you feel the need to ban me for saying this, I mean you have that power, but honestly in all respect I'm just trying to point out something that I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that you don't understand you are doing.
Well, let me correct an unfairness about this post. Wargrimnir is probably the most tolerating moderator on the forums. Yes, he is sarcastic most of the the time on his replies to people which is interpreted mostly as not being taken serious but I don't think that's the case. Previously, I had gotten a ban by simply correcting some of the errors and misconceptions a balance moderator had about a class before without being even prewarned. Well ironically that moderator was taken out of the team later... However, I have gotten a few warnings from Wargrim so far but never a complete ban from a topic or forums. So he is fairly patient on that matter. In order to get a ban one must be really asking for it.
Well sarcasm is a form of passive aggressive behaviour. Someone with that position in this community should be more careful in his replies. Behaviour like that is just highly irritating and lowers the possibility for people to engage in a constructive way. Also when he is mainly reacting to some troll comments of some users he also contributes to a shift of attention from mainly constructive discussions away to a focuse of some trolls speaking hate etc. Just to clarify. Regarding his "answer" to my proposal it seemed, that the devs didnt even see the proposal a few weeks ago.
I think it depends on how you perceive things. I don't see devs and moderators as representations of an institution or whatsoever responsible to give account to a community. They are simply some devoted players like us who were eager enough to takeover all the work to bring this game back to life in their own way without expecting a material gain out of it. So expecting them to be careful about their way of behaving or reacting things as if they represent a professional company or organization is not something I can expect personally. But then, that's only my opinion. My intention was not to digress the subject, I just wanted to share my own experience on forum rules and ban policy. Btw, I liked your proposal and happy to see some of your suggestions were implemented. I agree that the current situation of RSH is far from what it has originally been in live, but I think they are open to suggestions for rework on what have been implemented.

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Grunbag
Former Staff
Posts: 1881

Re: SH proposal

Post#30 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:33 pm

adamska2 wrote: Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:26 pm Hello, guys i want to purpose you someting about the Msquig pet.

My Sugestion is to make the Horned Squig pet similare to the WL pet.

Because of the big CD of the Horned Squig " 30 sec " you are forced to play with the tactics I Got Lots .
So their is not many choice, not many posibility you can do with your tactics as Msquig if you are forced to take I Got Lots.

You have alredy 3 core tactics POYOS / ST / SB and now I got lots


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You are not forced to use horned squig in melee anymore as armor buff is tiggers by squig armor . I think spiked squig is also an interesting choice depend of your play style . You’re showing sharp toof tactic which let me supposed you’re playing ST melee squig ?
Grunbag - 40 - 33 Squig Herder
Skorri - 40 - 65 Engineer

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