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Jurki
Posts: 31

SH proposal

Post#1 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:07 pm

Hey guys, since the SH changes are finally here, I want to share the proposal I sent the developers some weeks ago. Might be a bad timing but maybe it can help to direct us in a constructive way in properly engaging the situation and to work on some solutions because the changes are "odd" to say the least. So here I go better late than never:

My balance points are focused on the pet as it’s the source of the overall potential of the class (in my opinion) and abilities of the evil greeny himself. In the Beginning I want to explain two aspects on pet performance, before moving on to ideas considering actual abilities.
First: I think there shouldn’t be a focus on tactics like “He’s A Biggun” to increase the survivability of the pet, but give at least the range pets Spiked Squig and Gas Squig more HP. A bigger health pool should give the player the chance to actually use it more effectively.
Reason: its lower range than on live server and the heavy warband oriented gameplay are reasons why it’s often just melting away in seconds

Considering melee pets Horned Squig and normal variant Squig: survivability is a big issue for both squig variants too but there might be another solution necessary to solve that: granting them immunity to AE and AOE dmg (mirroring WL pet immunity to those)

Second: considering the first point another one is quite important to increase rsh’s viability without changing it at the core: Increasing the range of the pet again (as it originally was).
Reason: The low range is, beside the problem with fighting near blobs of enemies, quite an issue when it comes to kiting, which is a fundamental aspect of the rSH. Most of the time you are more or less running in the opposite direction of the enemy and as a result of your pet (spiked or gas squig), which has to stand still if it wants to attack as well. However low range is causing the pet to be out of range really fast thus preventing it from using “Drop that!” (disarm), which you need when fighting melees (especially WLs!). In most cases you are forced to order the pet to follow again, which is quite slow too, considering enemies rushing behind you to catch up. The pet is simply not able to catch up (also futile for the melee squigs) and if the player is trying to circle around the enemy to get in range of the pet again most of the time it ends in being cut off by the chasing melee catching up without any effort because you are forced to play into his hands in order to get in pet range for vital core abilities like the disarm. Fighting two or even more enemies enforces the issue. Increasing the range would be helping the player to have better control over the squig pet and improving the pet’s overall reliability in the fights.

After two important points of improving the pet performance some potential changes on the mean little goblin himself:
Shootin’ wif da Wind: I think it would be wise to change the tactic to grant armor penetration instead of increasing range of Quick Shooting abilities. It would mirror an aspect of one good change to the SW without the potential problem that the melee Squig players would profit from it like the aSW can. The increased range of Quick Shooting abilities should be a core effect of the class from the start.
Reason: the idea of a tactic granting more armor penetration on abilities of Big Shooting would force the player to stand still which would change the class in its mobile nature where kiting is so important and such a great defining aspect of the class itself. The once little and twitchy gobbos would just be a stationary dps, we certainly have enough in the game already, while keeping its fragility – in the long term it would simply carve out the soul of that class. So instead of that: Minor armor pen. for Quick Shooting through Shooting wif da Wind would be an attractive alternative, Big Shooting rSHs would be profiting from as well, since they also would be able to use the increased range on Quick Shooting abilities – giving rSHs a wider spectrum on being creative.

What a Blocka? A useful ability which is sadly not used often enough due to the overall fragile nature of the rSH forcing it to keep moving and a healthy distance to enemies. Changing What a Blocka? from being a Big Shooting ability to a Quick Shooting ability would make it possible to integrate it into the kiting which would be a good help against more armored foes and an opportunity to catch up in dps of other classes on those targets without changing the base dmg of other abilities which would surely make the rSH too powerful.

Tastes like chicken: this ability is often only useful when you need to switch to another squig fast. An increase in the HP the ability is granting would be very helpful, considering rSH to be quite fragile in order to do decent dmg (which is an aspect I love about the class because in my opinion its living by an iron law, class balancing in MMO’s should be based on: if you want to do dmg, you won’t be able to have good defences and if you want to have good defences, you are simply not able to do decent dmg – but that’s not the actual topic).

Thats it, I hope, it can motivate some to share thoughts and to support a healthy direction for the class.

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cimator
Posts: 124

Re: SH proposal

Post#2 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:35 pm

Agreed, tho I think What Blocka? is fine as it is, current damage of the rSH is a lot better now, armor debuff on the move would be too overkill imo.
But range should be definitely increased, 65ft is basically pounce range, kiting feels horrible atm.
It should be either 100ft base, or if the devs want to keep quick shootin lower range than big shootin' for lore/roleplay reasons, it should be 80ft or 85ft.
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Grunbag
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Re: SH proposal

Post#3 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:46 pm

I might be confused but from today patch we implemented what you are proposing :

- He’s a biggun already increase Wounds by 160

- Pets are already immune to aoe almost (-75% damage)

- Tastes like chicken increase your wounds now

- Pet range is 100 feet for gas (same as live for all pets)

- Sharpened Arrer tactic increase armor pen of ALL ranged attack by 25% (not only BS)

- horned squig providing same armor debuff than what Blocka? Now
Last edited by Grunbag on Sat Nov 28, 2020 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wargrimnir
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Re: SH proposal

Post#4 » Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:58 pm

Man, remember a couple weeks/months back when we specifically asked people to put their proposals onto the BDF if they wanted a chance at seeing their wishlist implemented, and then only a few people bothered doing so and it was mostly a copy/paste of the changes we already made to SW, which clearly wasn't the intent but gave use the green light to go ahead in confidence since our last round of changes were apparently well received in the long run?

Crazy times.
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Ugle
Posts: 578

Re: SH proposal

Post#5 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:00 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:58 pm
since our last round of changes were apparently well received in the long run?

Crazy times.
But were they?

Or did your "last round" enable more misconceptions about the viability and understate the reduction of the actual effectiveness of the play style and general effectiveness compared to the alternatives? (In terms of replace class A with B for the specified situation)
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wargrimnir
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Re: SH proposal

Post#6 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 2:15 am

Ugle wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 1:00 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:58 pm
since our last round of changes were apparently well received in the long run?

Crazy times.
But were they?

Or did your "last round" enable more misconceptions about the viability and understate the reduction of the actual effectiveness of the play style and general effectiveness compared to the alternatives? (In terms of replace class A with B for the specified situation)
misconceptions about the viability of ranged SW? Those don't take too long to sus out do they?
understate the reduction of effectiveness of the playstyle? As in, previously rSW was more effective? I doubt it. Could we have made them more effective? Sure, but that's for later.
understate the effectiveness compared to alternatives? Alternatives being Engineer and BW? I suppose you could include healers as ranged damage dealers, but probably not. This depends on the format and playstyle. SW is self sufficient and mobile compared to Engi who is not mobile, and BW who is not self sufficient. You pick them for different reasons. They can all do the job of putting out damage, but the drawbacks for Engi and BW are arguably greater, thus follows their potential.

We asked for suggestions, people gave them, we used them to put together changes. These are the changes. If they're bad we will find out in the long run, over weeks and months, and we will make adjustments. Not on patch day with the sort of feedback that we were absolutely expecting regarding the reduced range of their skirmish spec or the reduced aoe capability to conform with our goals for the spec. Would it be nice to have 100' range on everything and retain spammable AOE? Sure it would. It sure would be nice. Does that make sense for the spec or a semblance of balance for the class where risk/reward needs to be considered? Nah. It doesn't. SH has a lot of survival tools if someone closes the gap on them. If they're going to run skirmish, it should come at some risk. It wouldn't make sense to load them up with any kind of mobile killing power that the class was missing while keeping all the distance that makes them incredibly safe to play. That's part of the fun for both sides, they get to be dangerous, but there's a chance the can be caught and dealt with as well. SW had the same consideration taken. How strong should you reasonably make a mobile and self-sufficient class? There's room to tweak, but I feel the target is in the right place.
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adapter
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Re: SH proposal

Post#7 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 3:28 am

"Finish 'em off" back to Big Shootin'

Increase Quick Shootin' range by using a tactic

Shoot thru ya back to Quick Shootin core
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zij83
Posts: 123

Re: SH proposal

Post#8 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:14 am

wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:58 pm
Man, remember a couple weeks/months back when we specifically asked people to put their proposals onto the BDF if they wanted a chance at seeing their wishlist implemented, and then only a few people bothered doing so and it was mostly a copy/paste of the changes we already made to SW, which clearly wasn't the intent but gave use the green light to go ahead in confidence since our last round of changes were apparently well received in the long run?

Crazy times.
At risking a ban here, I'm just going to say one of the reasons I don't post as much as I did or really make suggestions anymore, is that when I see other people, or in my own experience I do, it is sometimes quickly followed by what seems like trolling from you. I have talked to people who have gotten a ban warning (myself included) for really just making a passionate plea for a change. The justification for this is often that these people are "being disrespectful do the development team". So when you come on here making comments like the one above and then later ask people for feedback it just comes off like you're trolling your own community. If you feel the need to ban me for saying this, I mean you have that power, but honestly in all respect I'm just trying to point out something that I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that you don't understand you are doing.

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wargrimnir
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Re: SH proposal

Post#9 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 7:13 am

zij83 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:14 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:58 pm
Man, remember a couple weeks/months back when we specifically asked people to put their proposals onto the BDF if they wanted a chance at seeing their wishlist implemented, and then only a few people bothered doing so and it was mostly a copy/paste of the changes we already made to SW, which clearly wasn't the intent but gave use the green light to go ahead in confidence since our last round of changes were apparently well received in the long run?

Crazy times.
At risking a ban here, I'm just going to say one of the reasons I don't post as much as I did or really make suggestions anymore, is that when I see other people, or in my own experience I do, it is sometimes quickly followed by what seems like trolling from you. I have talked to people who have gotten a ban warning (myself included) for really just making a passionate plea for a change. The justification for this is often that these people are "being disrespectful do the development team". So when you come on here making comments like the one above and then later ask people for feedback it just comes off like you're trolling your own community. If you feel the need to ban me for saying this, I mean you have that power, but honestly in all respect I'm just trying to point out something that I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that you don't understand you are doing.
There's nothing disrespectful that you've said. The people who get warnings know what they're doing to get them, and usually unless they're really trying to get banned they dial back the rhetoric appropriately.

I'm not trolling. We did grab all of the recent proposals and significantly used them to craft the changes. People knew for months changes were coming, only a few put anything on the BDF where we go to pull ideas, and of those few they were very close to what we had already done with SW. I've mentioned in several discussion threads that people should gather the results of their discussions and post them on the BDF. You can look through them if you like. viewforum.php?f=95
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Neverever
Posts: 177

Re: SH proposal

Post#10 » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:25 am

zij83 wrote:
Sat Nov 28, 2020 5:14 am
wargrimnir wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 11:58 pm
Man, remember a couple weeks/months back when we specifically asked people to put their proposals onto the BDF if they wanted a chance at seeing their wishlist implemented, and then only a few people bothered doing so and it was mostly a copy/paste of the changes we already made to SW, which clearly wasn't the intent but gave use the green light to go ahead in confidence since our last round of changes were apparently well received in the long run?

Crazy times.
At risking a ban here, I'm just going to say one of the reasons I don't post as much as I did or really make suggestions anymore, is that when I see other people, or in my own experience I do, it is sometimes quickly followed by what seems like trolling from you. I have talked to people who have gotten a ban warning (myself included) for really just making a passionate plea for a change. The justification for this is often that these people are "being disrespectful do the development team". So when you come on here making comments like the one above and then later ask people for feedback it just comes off like you're trolling your own community. If you feel the need to ban me for saying this, I mean you have that power, but honestly in all respect I'm just trying to point out something that I'm giving you the benefit of doubt that you don't understand you are doing.
Well, let me correct an unfairness about this post. Wargrimnir is probably the most tolerating moderator on the forums. Yes, he is sarcastic most of the the time on his replies to people which is interpreted mostly as not being taken serious but I don't think that's the case. Previously, I had gotten a ban by simply correcting some of the errors and misconceptions a balance moderator had about a class before without being even prewarned. Well ironically that moderator was taken out of the team later... However, I have gotten a few warnings from Wargrim so far but never a complete ban from a topic or forums. So he is fairly patient on that matter. In order to get a ban one must be really asking for it.

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