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Archmage/Shaman

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Structured class balance suggestions belong in the Balance Proposal subforum. Class-related discussion in this section are considered as ongoing debates and ARE NOT reviewed for balance changes.
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Goermsi
Posts: 134

Archmage/Shaman

Post#1 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:07 am

Hey Devs :-)
I wanted to participate constructively in a possible change of the shaman and would be happy if my thoughts might bring one or two impulses.

DPS-Shaman
You hear it over and over again from the community that the DPS shaman is too strong. Of course, this also applies 1:1 to the Archmage - but basically the players here are absolutely right.
I play this class myself (and like it very much) - but as a DPS, the Shaman/Archmage misses its real goal. He is too strong and there is little you can do to counter him. Personally, I think healers should heal and not deal such incredibly high damage. Hybrid, yes with pleasure. Best at focus damage? No ... that should be achieved by pure DPS classes only.
But how to achieve the goal without destroying the class?

take divine fury out of the game
The simplest solution would be to move divine fury as a Tactic or eliminate it altogether for Archmages and Shamans. In one fell swoop, 25% less damage would be in the game and the spikes caused in part by running dots and burst damage would be mitigated.

Bleed fer me
Next we need to talk about "bleed fer me" and the opposite spell on order.
Guys seriously, I find the spell glorious as a DPS shaman, but 24 seconds, selfheal and damn much damage. This has already destroyed many a player who has only briefly crossed the path of an Archmage/Shaman.
So how to deal with it now?
Wouldn't it be possible to reduce the damage and set a higher multiplier for the resulting healing?
So that the long-suffering full-healer can also benefit from it. With a 30 feet AOE-heal on the passive target so that the Archmage/Shaman (like all other healers) can contribute some AOE-heal?
This would bring down the damage of the DPS healer further while the full healer would rather participate.

Fury of da green
FODG is a very strong spell and a great way to add to any player's build. However, it has major weaknesses and is nowhere near as good as you would think. It would be nice to see changes here that would make the output more reliable.
Short explanation. So in the heat of battle, the healer looks for an active enemy target. This target has best few willpower to not disturb also it carries of course no shield. Then this target stands best still in the direct proximity of further "easy targets". The healer, who is completely underchallenged by the game, now combines this with a passive target that is also in close proximity to other allies whose life indicator shows less than 100%. He then remains stationary in place while casting the spell and hoping that no danger approaches him, nor do the circumstances around his active or passive target change. WOW!
You see, there are a lot of "ifs" and "buts" listed. Therefore, in my opinion, FODG is overrated and only playable in combination with other setups.
If we could at least cast spells while running, fewer of the spells would break off because we could keep sight. We would also be able to move and adapt to the battlefield.

Don feel nuthin
This is one of the few spells that the shaman can cast on critical targets without casting time and that have an immediate effect. After the recalculation of "Absorption" this spell was indirectly weakened. It would be great to get a higher value that gives the healer the possibility that his subsequent heal over time also contribute to the game.

Gather round
Would it be possible to reduce the group healing spell time by 0.5 seconds? Often the healing of the Archmages/Shamans comes to nothing because their group healing has a longer duration than for example the Sigmar Priests / Disciples.
Yes, their group heal may be weaker and based on a different resource. However, it's still modest when the result of 2.5 seconds of spell time, 65 action points and stationary positional play just fizzles out to nothing. By equalizing the spell time, we would have the chance to actively participate in the battle in a timely manner.

Greener & cleaner
Well ... cleaning friendly targets is a super important matter in ROR. The two tankyst healer classes do it, group cleanup without cast time. Wow. Now I'm not saying that the Archmage/Shamane needs this as mandatory as well, but a small improvement to this currently single-target ability would be great. Again, yes there is a really tiny absorption. Perhaps one would like to increase this? Or automatically add a small healing bonus to it? Something that puts this ability more in the spotlight.
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wargrimnir
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Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#2 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:23 pm

Moved this to discussions as it looks... like a discussion.
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vanbuinen77
Posts: 223

Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#3 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:43 pm

The problem is the ap drain.

Remove that and reduce their ability costs and call it a day.
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Toggle
Posts: 286

Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#4 » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:44 pm

Goermsi wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:07 am
DPS-Shaman
You hear it over and over again from the community that the DPS shaman is too strong. Of course, this also applies 1:1 to the Archmage - but basically the players here are absolutely right.
I play this class myself (and like it very much) - but as a DPS, the Shaman/Archmage misses its real goal. He is too strong and there is little you can do to counter him. Personally, I think healers should heal and not deal such incredibly high damage. Hybrid, yes with pleasure. Best at focus damage? No ... that should be achieved by pure DPS classes only.
But how to achieve the goal without destroying the class?
DPS AM and shaman are really, really good at certain things. However, they are FAR from the “best at focus damage”. Not even close to best, actually. So, I’ll just stop there since the initial premise the rest of your post is based on is demonstrably incorrect.

Do they need a tweak somewhere - yes. But their issues are really with their broken mechanic and not their damage.
Shaman - 40/8X
Zealot - 40/8X [Retired]
AM - 40/8X
RP - 40/7X [Retired]

emiliorv
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Posts: 1295

Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#5 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:09 am

Goermsi wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:07 am
Greener & cleaner
Well ... cleaning friendly targets is a super important matter in ROR. The two tankyst healer classes do it, group cleanup without cast time. Wow. Now I'm not saying that the Archmage/Shamane needs this as mandatory as well, but a small improvement to this currently single-target ability would be great. Again, yes there is a really tiny absorption. Perhaps one would like to increase this? Or automatically add a small healing bonus to it? Something that puts this ability more in the spotlight.
well, both am-shman have 1 tactic to make ST-cleanse => grp-cleanse (only 50 ft range)
and both have a tactic to place a hot on a sucessfull cleanse

Both tactics didnt work together (at least last time i tried, long time ago...) and probably no one bother because you need to waste 2 slot tactics...

Maybe merging that 2 tactics (working properly) could be a good improvement to heal am/shaman...

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kmark101
Posts: 482

Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#6 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:13 am

Shaman and AM are both very strong in the dps part, but when focused down:
- AM dies like any dps/healer under heavy focus
- Shaman just runs away

So how would you balance this?
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lyncher12
Posts: 542

Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#7 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:20 am

if anything dps shaman needs a buff, 17 second channel cd is too long.

AxelF
Posts: 219

Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#8 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 12:27 am

Run Away needs to break on ability use

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ByzantineTime
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Posts: 168

Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#9 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:04 am

Goermsi wrote: Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:07 am Hey Devs :-)
I wanted to participate constructively in a possible change of the shaman and would be happy if my thoughts might bring one or two impulses.

DPS-Shaman
You hear it over and over again from the community that the DPS shaman is too strong. Of course, this also applies 1:1 to the Archmage - but basically the players here are absolutely right.
I play this class myself (and like it very much) - but as a DPS, the Shaman/Archmage misses its real goal. He is too strong and there is little you can do to counter him. Personally, I think healers should heal and not deal such incredibly high damage. Hybrid, yes with pleasure. Best at focus damage? No ... that should be achieved by pure DPS classes only.
But how to achieve the goal without destroying the class?
This is really ridiculous by your suggestion, lets remove the dps spec from all healing classes, and tanks as well.

shaman's DPS isn't the best, many other classes their ST burst is much better.
Definitely not best at focus damage..
Remember shaman can do good focus damage only if his heals gets affected hard, touch of gork -20% all heals + divine fury, and your healing is gimped, that's why shamans that run this build solo die easily because you can't really kite + survive in this build.
so that kinda answers your question, you dps but you can't heal.. You can't contest aoe dps in city, cause you have 1 aoe which sucks, with 5 sec cooldown, unless you have some orcs that remove the cooldown, and still.. didn't try it myself, and the m4 kinda sucks too, since it's m4 and battles end too fast until you reach it, unless you self pump etc etc, anyway, it's not good reliable enough.

You can choose to use mork/da green build, but it's not really good "focus damage", or heal, just for solo roaming. yeah the dots cripple but it's legit, and can be countered very easily.

What I can say is the biggest issues of Sham/AM is the broken class mechanic if you fix it, the class should be fine.

I thought about giving another mechanic for the class, once you reach 5 points into either mork/gork, you can activate a buff that activates the buffs of those abilities + 10% power let's say, same for AMS, with 60 second cooldown, for 25 seconds.
You can activate the buff earlier, for 1 point too, each point gives extra time, 5 sec, same 10% extra power, (maybe even 20% power).

Bloodmasked
Posts: 200

Re: Archmage/Shaman

Post#10 » Thu Dec 17, 2020 2:58 am

Yeah the mechanic is silly, you spam hot's on urself 5 times before a fight and then blow the stacks on somebody. Atleast that is what i presume all dps AM/Shammies do, i never got past t3 on shammy.

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