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Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

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Glorian
Posts: 4759

Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#1 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:23 pm

Last Patchnotes on 23.12.2020 put a kill debuff on the two Towers in Troll Country.
One at Greystone Keep BO one at Kinschel BO.
Meaning if you go there you get killed after 5 seconds if standing there.
I will concentrate here on the Ruins of Greystone Tower.

The Explanation was that using the Tower is an Exploit by safely working on the opposition without fear of retaliation.
I want to list here several arguments why the Tower is not an Exploit but part of the RvR Enviroment like a hill or a rock.

1) No Bug abuse or Glitch:
To get on the Tower you aren't glitching through Terrain or use the wonky RoR Collision to get there, so it looks like magic. It is simply Mount up and jump.

2) Free Access:
Any Player with a mount can reach the Position from PvE. Like on the screenshot you need to make the first jump mounted and then continue on the roof. Making the jump under combat situation is difficult but not unlikely. More of that in the Point Counterplay. Also you could jump directly on the right spot on the green arrow.
Spoiler:
Image
3) Can't take BO:
If standing on the Tower you are ~170ft away from the Flag. You can't take the BO when you are on top. You could send down some Players but they are toast once a wb arives. So while being in the tower you can't keep the BO and still be out of range.

4) No Enemies no Fun:
Not sure how to put it. When you sit on the Tower there could be nothing happening for 20 minutes or 1 hour if no one wants to go there. This is one of the things with spot gameplay. Be it solo or group gameplay. You have your spot and think someone should come, but you can't be sure.

5) The Opposition doesn't need the tower to get the BO:
If standing behind the walls or simply below the tower or on the east side on the dead angels on the tower one Opposition player can take the BO without players on the Top interfering.

6) Counterplay Knockbacks:
There are several ways to counter a rdps group that is sitting on a position. From an Order perspective the following tactics work against it:
M1 Shaman Aoe Knockback on Range.
rSH AoE Knockback on Range
Dark Elf Balista. I think Ork one too, but I am not sure.
Jump on the position with a player with a Knockback:
Black Guard, Black Orc, Chosen
Jump on the position with a player with AoE Knockback:
DoK, Zealot

We have played for several years now on the position and tried to use some countermeasures vs destro players jumping over the gap. Trying to get behind the wall and try to dismount them before the jump. Although that is usually only a matter of time till more and more players make the jump and begin to knock players of the tower. One by one or in groups. In all the time we never fought off a bigger sized destro warband. There is only one way how this will end. Especially as once a Tank is on the Tower he can be group healed through the wall by his healers and will not get down.

7) Counterplay Warband:
Shooting opposition is nice and fun. But it usually only works on non tanks as these don't have enough time to get out of the range. Healers and Dps are the primary targets. This changes though when they are guarded and healed in a warband. Only by surprise you can get there some kills. If the warband is capable of single target healing we wont do damage. So a simple counter is to stay in a warband where players do their job.

8) Counterplay RDPS:
Destro has some mighty fine rdps. The Magus capable of putting ST on the same range and Aoe on top of the Tower. If he is not alone facing a 12 men and be in a 2/2/2 group or warband we are usually done for. A closer rSH or Sorc can also shoot up on us. On the Tower we can move back a little to get out of sight but if the destro force is bigger and guarded/healed we can't simply take on them.

9) Counterplay Line of sight:
To make the jump on Top and if you want to load your abilities simply hide behind the Tree on Top.

10) Counterplay 6men stuff:
Send in the Tank on the BO and heal him on max range with your healers.

11) Counterplay Read Chat and don't go there.
Ambush groups are usually called out in T4 chat and soonish we got an opposition WB on our heads. If you are a player of the other side simply reading chat and avoid a firezone.


Summary:
I try here to show that while sit on the Tower you aren't a demigod in RvR and blocking the progress of RvR or blocking a zone. On the tower you can try of course to disrupt supply lines and stop ressource carriers. But you can't lock of one BO. If the opposition has a second one Ressources will flow. If the opposition moves in with a 6 men that locks to the sky or a wb they can pick up ressources or clean the towergroup out.
Last edited by Glorian on Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Akilinus
Posts: 350

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#2 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:33 pm

4) No Enemies no Fun:
Not sure how to put it. When you sit on the Tower there could be nothing happening for 20 minutes or 1 hour if no one wants to go there. This is one of the things with spot gameplay. Be it solo or group gameplay. You have your spot and think someone should come, but you can't be sure.
So why are you sitting there waiting for something to happen?
And not being more of an active group with bigger impact in the rvr.
Kkomrade 80 Zealot Akilinuz 80 Chosen
Kkomrades 80 Black Guard Sauer 80 Squig herder

sonorous
Posts: 84

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#3 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:37 pm

Akilinus wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:33 pm
4) No Enemies no Fun:
Not sure how to put it. When you sit on the Tower there could be nothing happening for 20 minutes or 1 hour if no one wants to go there. This is one of the things with spot gameplay. Be it solo or group gameplay. You have your spot and think someone should come, but you can't be sure.
So why are you sitting there waiting for something to happen?
And not being more of an active group with bigger impact in the rvr.
So you are saying that that spot should not be allowed because its use does not contribute enough to the outcome of the rvr state ? Almost as if there is pros and cons to static gameplay....

Thank you for agreeing with lestis point
Kolland & Irolland

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Akilinus
Posts: 350

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#4 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:45 pm

So you are saying that that spot should not be allowed because its use does not contribute enough to the outcome of the rvr state ? Almost as if there is pros and cons to static gameplay....
Thank you for agreeing with lestis point
I dont have an issue with that spot, just having a hard time trying to understand how you can enjoy playing the game the way you do. Maybe you got some other activities while you sit and wait for 20min for some soloer to potentialy show up so that you can 7X snipe that person.
My guess is that you sit there and wait for someone to start attacking a keep so that you can move to the next tower.
Kkomrade 80 Zealot Akilinuz 80 Chosen
Kkomrades 80 Black Guard Sauer 80 Squig herder

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Glorian
Posts: 4759

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#5 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:33 pm

Several viewers don't understand what is the fun to sit in ambush for 10 minutes and wait for someone to come by.
I also can't explain it. It is a little like fishing. Only fun if you do it yourself.

I understand though that it is the counterapproach to kiting 6men action or Warband play.

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Kragg
Posts: 1709

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#6 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:45 pm

Akilinus wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:45 pm
So you are saying that that spot should not be allowed because its use does not contribute enough to the outcome of the rvr state ? Almost as if there is pros and cons to static gameplay....
Thank you for agreeing with lestis point
I dont have an issue with that spot, just having a hard time trying to understand how you can enjoy playing the game the way you do. Maybe you got some other activities while you sit and wait for 20min for some soloer to potentialy show up so that you can 7X snipe that person.
My guess is that you sit there and wait for someone to start attacking a keep so that you can move to the next tower.
You guessed wrong. Most do. We are very often on the move because you get jumped by a warband a few minutes later after you shot someone. Or if we have guessed the wrong spot; we move off again. But as we once started out as an engineer guild only, inspired by 18th century gunline infantry and the warhammer game itself, the engineer is still our favorite class. This was amazing back when the T2 and T3 zones, where we could wreck havoc. Why do you think keg was nerfed to party? :mrgreen:

Anyhow, besides the troubles that a racial based warband faces and the squishyness of the rifleman engineer we need to be able to dictate the location of the battle, as we can do very little against a melee ball running us over. Hence, we seek to ambush groups and entire warbands from a distance. To win some fire time we seek out hills, rocks, tree's, towers, walls and branches, so we have the time to put our guns to good use. It is actually alot of fun to ambush people properly, see the confussion and the panic as they do not seem able to locate us at first glance. It's priceless. And you might be suprised just how many we kill. :mrgreen:

Also, you mentioned being effective. There are sieges where we rack up 150+ kills, being single target dps ;)
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Sergeant-Major Drengk Burloksson, RR 84 Sniper
Hulfdan Irongrip, Ironbreaker
Rordin Ironrune, Runepriest
Proud Founder of the 3rd Bitterstone Thunderers

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Gurf
Posts: 520

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#7 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:02 pm

They should just make the spots more accessible rather than blocking them off, gives zones and the game more variety rather than flat Zerg friendly zones

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Glorian
Posts: 4759

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#8 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:07 pm

Spoiler:
Image
Update on Original Post with second route to jump.
This is not Super Mario stuff here. :)

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sighy
Posts: 163

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#9 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:41 pm

Glorian wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 1:33 pm
Several viewers don't understand what is the fun to sit in ambush for 10 minutes and wait for someone to come by.
I also can't explain it. It is a little like fishing. Only fun if you do it yourself.

I understand though that it is the counterapproach to kiting 6men action or Warband play.
I'd say that's kind of the crux of the problem faced here. It's something, which leaves a bitter taste(pardon the pun), for many especially newer or more casual players, who are not necessarily familiar with RoR's occasionally wonky terrain. (I remember you could walk across rooftops on on Reikwald BO once upon a time too, for example)


That said I'm for more strategic play around BOs, if they were actually worth holding, which they're not really.

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space44
Posts: 169

Re: Unchain the Terrain - Making Greystone Tower TC open again

Post#10 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:10 pm

that spot from my experience seems to only be popular for engineers.
Chosen: Roten Plaguelord rr84 | Knight of the Blazing Sun: Deadsins Cinderblight rr59 | Warrior Priest: Ulfrric Greywolf rr51

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